"If you never have any doubts ad you never sort of falter: you’re a psychopath, you’re not steadfast. If you have a character who is steadfast, obviously there’s doubting and there’s wobbling and that’s part of what makes it interesting. But also that also tripping you up, that stubbornness, that determination, that steadfastness being the thing that trips you up, like the dramatic irony there is really juicy."
— Mel Killingsworth | DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Character as Habitual Action
"I really like David Mamet's definition of a character being habitual action. That's his interpretation of Aristotle, that all a character is is habitual action. And therefore, I think, when... talking about a character change, you're talking about a character's habits changing, right? And therefore, you know, and the other derivation of that is that that means the film has to do enough setup to understand what a character's habit is. And then it needs enough payoff to understand that it wasn't just a one-off thing that they did, but it's actually going to stick."
— Stu Willis
(00:05:04)
· DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Steadfast Characters Need Doubt
"If you never have any doubts ad you never sort of falter: you're a psychopath, you're not steadfast. If you have a character who is steadfast, obviously there's doubting and there's wobbling and that's part of what makes it interesting. But also that also tripping you up, that stubbornness, that determination, that steadfastness being the thing that trips you up, like the dramatic irony there is really juicy."
— Mel Killingsworth
(00:22:22)
· DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Steadfast Changes Others, Not Self
"To define how I think of steadfast, it's the person whose... resilience and stubbornness affects others, right? So, that's their steadfast in the belief... The most common example (and it's actually where I first heard of this terminology( is in the Hunger Games because Katniss' belief changes others. It's not that she changes her belief, her belief is able to change others."
— Stu Willis
(00:23:07)
· DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Emotional Events Replace Character Arcs
"What makes this work story-wise and keeps compelled is that it has emotional events regardless. And I think Apollo 13 has emotional events between the characters. If anything, the only thing that changes is the relationship between characters. I don't think they change the world. They don't come back and be like, we found water on Mars. You know, it's kind of, and maybe that's true of all survival stories, or maybe they don't, they're just compelling because the external stakes are so high."
— Stu Willis
(00:39:23)
· DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Multiple Challenges Dramatize Resilience
"I think you need internal and external challenges and I think the external challenges should be both friendly and non-friendly; which you get in Moana. Like you need a multitude of challenges to, not just prove the steadfastness but to show it in in a dynamic and interesting way and you get that in this you have the fact that her, right at the start her dad's like no you're not going to do this right and then she goes off and she finds a frenemy... who also challenges her ability to do that... and then she finds agiant crab that is like aha you know and then she finds a range of different friends, frenemies, and enemies who challenge it, and that keeps it interesting and shows the resilience and steadfastness while also keeping it dynamic."
— Mel Killingsworth
(00:25:57)
· DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change
Three Layers Of Character Arc
"There are two layers to the character's arc, or three really, which is what happens to the character: do they change? Or not change? For the better or worse? What is the character's experience of that or belief of that? Do they believe they've changed for better or for worse? And then the third is what is the audience perspective on that? So a character can change, that's the first kind of filter: have they changedm have they not? Then there's the judgment layer from the character which is: do I believe this is for the better or for the worse? And then there's our perception of that."
— Stu Willis
(00:11:11)
· DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?
Contrast And Affinity Shape Character Arc
"I think one of the things I'm coming into with arcs is how are you creating contrast? Not just the contrast over time or forward from the character that they go from, they're hateful, now they're loving, which is, we'll go into the specifics of that, but how we even understand that as a thing. How do we understand that these characters' values exist is about contrast, that we, in that point of time, understanding that this person has underdog values, to use the Michael Hauge term, because he's talking about character arcs when he's talking about the philosophical stakes or the values. Oh, this is underdog value you have to have contrast around it."
— Stu Willis
(00:39:32)
· DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?
Stories Teach Safe Experience Of Other Lives
"I think, very, very explicitly, and I can point to a couple of specific shows and movies and whatever, that when I was young, that film and television were my way out of a very bad situation. And it wasn't a conscious thing, but it was very much that through learning about these outside experiences, these experiences completely outside of my own even conception, you know, as a child and a teenager, I was able then to finally manage to A, see that the situation I was in was sub-ideal, and B, see an alternative and see characters that I didn't. Idealized or even aspects of them, if not specific, oh, I want to be like them. Oh, but I want that stubbornness or I want that, you know, zest for the truth, or I want that fight or I want that whatever specific aspect of this character to follow."
— Mel Killingsworth
(00:26:57)
· DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?
Audience Expectation Of Change Shapes Arc Meaning
"When or how did the film (and I'm using film shorthand for film and television) teach us as the audience to expect whether characters will change or not? Because... I think it's so important I think the story will set us up in a way, to expect characters to change or not and then either subvert that expectation or not. But I think it's an important tool for us to look at these stories that we're going to be diving into and go, how have they set us up to what are the expectations? That the film, that the story is setting up for us in the beginning?"
— Chas Fisher
(00:58:42)
· DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?
Rewriting for Character Consistency
"I think the two main things that I find really need fixing when I hit the end of my first drafts is that I've updated the character sheet, but now I realize the whole first half, everything they're doing makes no sense. The other thing is that if you have an ensemble piece, all of the characters sound quite the same."
— Mel Killingsworth
(00:27:25)
· DZ-106: How do you know if you have enough story?

How do you write a satisfying story when your character never changes
AI✦Stu, Chas, and Mel spend the entire episode examining whether characters need to change for a story to work, using Moana, Apollo 13, and The Dressmaker as case studies of steadfast protagonists.✦
Listen to learn how to move an audience with a character who never changes.
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Do characters need to change for you to have a satisfying story? That’s a question we’ve been asking since, like, episode five of this podcast. And we’re finally talking about it…
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What effect does character changing have on the audience?
AI✦The entire episode is a primer on character arcs, with Stu, Chas, and Mel establishing frameworks to distinguish between characters who change, how they feel about that change, and how stories position audiences to perceive it.✦
Listen to separate the three layers of an arc -- does the character change? How do they feel about it? And how is the audience positioned to feel about it?
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Stu, Chas and Mel finally begin their long-awaited journey into CHARACTER ARCS. In this “primer” episode, we try find some learnings and analytical lenses that we can then apply in future breakdowns…
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How does Film Noir show us terrible people doing terrible things without endorsing it?
AI✦Mel and Chas distinguish that Easy ‘probably never changes’ while Mouse and Daphne undergo transformations, and Woman of the Hour’s killer doesn’t transform either--he simply reveals his true nature--so the arc question becomes what the protagonist learns about the world, not about themselves.✦
Listen if you need audiences to root for characters who do terrible things
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Mel and Chas continue to explore what Noir (the genre) can teach writers of all other genres. In particular:…
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What can Film Noir teach us about character arcs and audience engagement?
AI✦Mel and Chas argue whether Neff and Marlowe undergo transformative arcs or simply reveal who they always were, asking whether change means doing something different or allowing your true nature to emerge.✦
Listen if you want to write morally compromised characters without endorsing their choices.
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In this two part series, Mel and Chas use Noir (the genre) as a lens to interrogate flawed characters. How can characters doing reprehensible things still engage audiences? How can you ensure representation isn’t endorsement? And whether these characters undergo transformative arcs, or simply reveal their true natures…
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How can you use physical objects to track character change… wordlessly?
AI✦By examining how Thor’s crisis of masculinity unfolds through Mjolnir and Stormbreaker, or how yearning love materializes through paintings and music, the hosts show how talismans function as the visible scaffolding of internal change.✦
Listen to write objects that accumulate powerful meanings across your story and create unspoken emotional payoffs.
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In part two of our two-part series on TALISMANS, we break down the beats used to turn objects (in a broad sense) into talismans; how talismans can track character journeys and transitions; and how they can be used to create powerful moments without words…
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How can you use setups and payoffs to stitch your film together?
AI✦Evelyn’s journey from control to kindness tracks across absurdist worlds--singing, martial arts, raccoon chef--where each skill pickup doubles as a relationship beat mirroring her internal transformation.✦
Listen to understand how setups, payoffs, and reversals create narrative cohesion even when your story is fkn bonkers.
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In this one-shot, Chas and Stu jump into the utter chaos of EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE. Y’know, nultiverses, butt-plug action sequences, hot-dog fingers, a raccoon chef, a nihilist bagel. All the good stuff. And yet it lands emotionally in a way that feels inevitable…
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How can interweaving two timelines change how we feel about a character?
AI✦Stu, Mel, and Chas specifically investigate how the interweaving timelines change how the audience feels about Mark Zuckerberg across the film, recontextualizing his character through temporal structure.✦
Listen to understand how manage stakes when you're using flashforwards.
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In this Part 2 of Interweaving Timelines (aka The Stu Monologue Episode), Mel, Chas and Stu tackle Sorkin/Fincher’s The Social Network. As you’ll hear, it is clearly Stu’s favourite of the examples we cover and, ah,
not Mel’s favourite. While all three bring their own biases and opinions on the reality of Facebook as it has become, we do manage to put the destruction of democracy to one side to actually analyse the meticulous craft that this film displays…
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How do you choose which project to start next?
AI✦Stu and Chas spend considerable time waxing lyrical on character journeys--how they develop through a screenplay and what makes them satisfying.✦
Listen if you're starting a new co-writing relationship, managing multiple projects, or wondering how to prioritize your next screenplay.
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In their now-annual full backmatter episode, Stu and Chas let their hair down, drop the guise of objectivity, and allow themselves to have an even more subjective opinion about writing and the business of writing…
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How can I develop my theme without writing script pages?
AI✦Understanding theme requires seeing how your protagonist’s internal journey connects to the story’s thematic proposition, which Stephen explores through the lens of WITNESS.✦
Listen tolearn concrete tools for developing theme in the early stages of your writing.
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Continuing our look at tools used in development, Chas & Stu are joined by Stephen Cleary to talk about
Theme,
The Thematic Logline and what Stephen calls
The Story Synopsis. All are tools to help writers better understand their theme and how it is dramatised. We use the classic film WITNESS as an example, so spoilers abound…
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Do you want your audience feeling with or for your characters?
AI✦Chas and Julio’s disagreement hinges on whether Cap and Tony actually change across Endgame, making character arc construction the central dramatic question of the episode.✦
Listen if you're interested in how to dramatise character change, position your audience in relation to characters, and explore the difference between empathy and sympathy in screenwriting
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One day, Chas saw
Avengers: Endgame for the second time and wrote a review on Letterboxd. In particular, he had issues with how little he perceived the characters of Cap and Tony changed within the film, their big finale (spoiler). Then friend and patron of the podcast Julio Olivera vehemently disagreed in the comments. He was egged on by Stu. And there in the comments began a debate that looked a lot like an episode of Draft Zero. So we decided to make it one…
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How do systems pressure your characters to change?
AI✦Chas and Stu frame every character’s journey in relation to how the world’s rules pressure them toward three outcomes: submission, overthrow, or escape--making systemic antagonism the engine of thematic character development.✦
Listen if you want to use how societal, governmental, or environmental forces as villains.
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This is Part Four (!!) of our Five Part Epic Exploration into antagonists forces and sources of conflict. In this episode we explore “system/world/society” antagonists. While stereotypically associated with science-fiction, these sources of conflict are found across genres…
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What changes in your story if your antagonistic forces can't be bargained with?
AI✦By examining how protagonists are pushed to their limits by antagonists that cannot be reasoned with, the episode shows how external pressure from an unyielding force generates internal transformation.✦
Listen to understand why pressure--not obstacles--is what transforms a protagonist when they face an unstoppable force.
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In this Part Three of our Five Part Epic Exploration™ into antagonistic forces (and sources of conflict), Chas & Stu explore “nature” antagonists, including some supernatural ones. What became clear in doing the homework (and recording this episode
twice) was that the antagonistic forces - whether natural or supernatural - presented different narrative challenges to the protagonists if (a) they did not seem to make choices and (b) could not be bargained with or defeated…
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How can your first act effectively establish your character journey?
AI✦By analyzing how these films establish their characters’ starting points--their wounds and flaws--Stu and Chas show how first acts lay the groundwork for the entire character journey that follows.✦
Listen if your first act exposition feels clunky--the MCU has a schema for burying backstory inside character introductions.
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First Acts are hard. They have to set so much in motion, especially setting up characters. To help them understand how to write effective first acts better, Stu and Chas turn their analytical gaze to a franchise that has been refining and reiterating its first act “schema” for over a decade... THE MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE…
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How does splitting 'character functions' enhance theme?
AI✦Chas and Stu examine how distributing character functions affects which characters change and in what ways, showing that your primary character doesn’t need to be the one who transforms.✦
Listen to see how splitting character functions across your cast sharpens what your story actually means.
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We are often told that our ‘protagonist’ needs to be a active. That they need to be compelling. That they need to change. And - old faithful - that they need to be likeable. But after looking at MAD MAX: FURY ROAD, STAR TREK (2009), THE FIGHTER, and SICARIO, Chas and Stu learn that your primary character does not need to do
all these things. In fact, they learn that splitting these functions between your primary characters can reinforce theme and create potential for different types of narratives…
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What can be gleamed from the substantial rewrite of a famed spec?
AI✦By comparing Singer’s original script with O’Russell’s version, the hosts examine how character trajectories were altered in the rewrite process.✦
Listen to learn how impactful rewriting can be.
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Stu and Chas look at AMERICAN BULLSHIT (the 2010 Black List spec script by Eric Warren Singer) and the film it became… AMERICAN HUSTLE (co-written and directed by David O’Russell), which garnered 10 Oscar nominations in 2014…
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Do Oscar-Nominated screenwriters follow the structural formulas prescribed by the 'gurus' and books?
AI✦Stu and Chas trace how Philomena’s arc centers on forgiveness while Martin’s involves moving from cynicism to genuine care, and how Dallas Buyers Club’s structure repeatedly cycles Ron through self-interest to altruism, demonstrating that character transformation can drive structure better than traditional beat-hitting.✦
Listen if you want to know whether Blake Snyder, Michael Hauge and Christopher Vogler's structural theories actually apply to Academy Award-nominated screenplays
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Three of the most widely read structure books in screenwriting — Snyder’s
Save the Cat, Vogler’s
The Writer’s Journey, and Michael Hauge’s
Six Stages — all make essentially the same claim: this is how great films are built. In our debut episode, we run that claim against two Oscar-nominated films to see if it holds: PHILOMENA and DALLAS BUYERS CLUB…
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How do you dramatise a protagonist's internal journey through their final decision?
AI✦Stu notes that final choices function as clear binaries for character arcs precisely because of all the groundwork done before, making the choice itself the visible payoff of the entire character trajectory.✦
Listen if you want to understand how to better dramatise a character's internal journey
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In this episode, Stu and Chas focus
solely on the final choices made by protagonists and how that reflects their character journey and successfully, or not, dramatises the internal…
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How do you know if you have enough narrative fuel to write a script?
AI✦Mel describes using a five-act structure specifically to track both plot and the internal journey of the protagonist, while Chas emphasizes knowing your ending and theme before developing character choices that will fill the middle.✦
Listen you're not sure whether your idea has enough fuel for 90 pages.
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In this episode, Chas, Stu and Mel attempt to answer a listener question:
“In your own pre-writing process, how do you know you have enough for a feature? And do you have a specific pre-writing method you’re going to?”…
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What is difference between choice and decision when it comes to audience experience?
AI✦NOMADLAND demonstrates how choices and decisions can be used strategically to show character stasis--when a character doesn’t change despite facing similar decisions across the narrative.✦
Listen when you want to show a character refusing to change despite every opportunity to do so.
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In our second part of our “series” on Choices & Decisions, we take a deep dive into THE FAREWELL and WRATH OF MAN, with a sidebar on NOMADLAND…
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How do tactics make your characters and scenes more dynamic?
AI✦Chas and Stu trace how changing tactics across multiple scenes in HELL OR HIGH WATER, SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, and WINTER’S BONE reflects character growth even when the underlying goal remains constant.✦
Listen to learn how a character's tactics reveal who they are under pressure--and how their changing tactics reveals their growth.
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In this episode, Stu and Chas turn their gaze to the “tactics” that characters use in scenes to get what they want. Tactics are
how the characters try to achieve their goals and (we reckon) can be revealing of the essence of their character. The shifting and thwarting of tactics can make scenes more dynamic; while over the course of a story, the changing of tactics can reflect the growth of characters... even if their goal stays the same…
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How does interweaving two timelines change how the audience feel?
AI✦Interweaving timelines allows the team to track how a character changes across time, using the structural separation to measure the distance between who they were and who they’ve become.✦
Listen when you're writting multiple timelines and struggling to anchor your reader to one timeline's perspective.
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Stu and Chas are joined by Mel Killingsworth to dissect interweaving timelines. Not anthology films. Not Cloud Atlas. But films where two plot lines featuring the same characters, but from different timelines, are woven together…
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