DZ-99: Scene Questions — Transcript | Draft Zero: A Screenwriting Podcast

9 chapters

1 MAY 2023

0:00 Cold Open

Stu Willis

You know you got a space for that or you got space for theme at the end of a scene you know and finally she's sitting on my lap.

Chas Fisher

Don't talk bitch.

From the film

If you want more Draft Zero more often please consider joining our wonderful cohort of patrons. However this episode in particular is brought to you by script up. Now regular listeners know that script up a story consultants with industry expertise they don't promise any of that access to market bullshit they just help you make your script better via their excellent report and a follow up feedback call. And that feedback call is super valuable if you like me and you think with your mouth open you know that often discussing ideas is how you find solutions to problems. We've used script up and they were super helpful for our project. And we've also heard from listeners who sing their praises that say that their written analysis is really thoughtful and considered, but that the follow-up call really does help that it helps them diagnose things that are unseen and also helps them spitball possible solutions in a really creative environment. But the best news we've heard recently for Stu and my ego and also hopefully for your ego, dear listeners, is that ScriptUp has told us that when they get a script from a Draft Zero listener, those scripts are a cut above. This means that you dear listener must be a better writer just because you love listening to three-hour podcasts about screenwriting jokes aside I think having a shared passion for the screenwriting craft and that's why we're all here is awesome. Ego stroking aside if you would like 10% off ScriptUp story consultancy services please use the promo code DZ10 and you can find the links and the promo code in our show notes. And now for front matter. Isn't this different matter?

1:56 Intro: Scene Questions

Chas Fisher

Hi I'm Chas Fisher.

Stu Willis

And I'm Stu Willis.

Chas Fisher

And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two Australian filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays and scenes work.

Stu Willis

And in this episode we are talking about scene questions or questions that the audience ask when watching a scene, I guess? That's very broad.

Chas Fisher

I guess this is a a narrowing of focus from when we did sequence level questions with Stephen Cleary and he had broadly broken the types of narrative, for lack of a better word questions that writers and filmmakers can prompt in an audience and he broadly broke them down as plot questions, character questions and thematic questions and then there's like it's it's not, You know they're not mutually exclusive in that we looked at how the drama of the Bourne Identity that you know some of those tensions of the scenes like the plot elements of the more brought out by introducing character questions. Within those broader sequences but now we're wanting to do look at in particular how this tool could be applied to make individual scenes. Stronger and as always this is a rewriting tool so as do you fire away.

Stu Willis

Yeah he's definitely a rewriting to I think it can be a writing tool on some level because it's about being aware of what an audience's experience of a scene is now when you're in a bit. I say it can be a writing tool definitely feels more like rewriting because I think we're probably similar and other writers you know once you're if you're in the flow I tend to not be thinking about the audience's experience. Yeah like there are moments I definitely conceive of like point of view shifts or particularly like I want to start on this and come to here and you know to create tension and stuff like that but it's usually on this on subsequent passes and I'm more consciously thinking about what the audience's experience of the film is. And questions here as you said I love the word prompted in the audience but before we get into what we mean by that I want to start with something that seems basic but isn't.

Chas Fisher

Okay.

Stu Willis

But what do you think a scene is Chas?

Chas Fisher

Okay, so I think it's very different in theatre than in film and I'm happy to have an argument there, but obviously it's a unit of story, you know, like my kids keep asking me, what's smaller than atoms? And, you know, we get into subatomic particles and then we get into shit that I don't understand. And I just throw out the word quarks and quantum and hope that they go away.

Stu Willis

Yeah, fair enough.

Chas Fisher

I think it's a unit of storytelling so you know something that has a sensibly a beginning middle and end in the reason why I think it's different in film and theatre is I think scenes in film. Are more location-oriented, like, you know, something that takes place in a location is often a scene, but I think we'll probably both agree that you can have multiple scenes within the same location without leaving that location. And the reason I think it's different in theatre is obviously there's- it's hard to change location in theatre. So, usually it's to do with, like, all the characters leaving, or certainly some characters leaving.

Stu Willis

The term that I've heard and is for that is French scene so the idea is that you have you know character A and B in a scene character B leaves character C comes in you know A and C talk B comes back it's A, B and C and then B and C stay or whatever the configuration of characters is a French scene and it changes the scene. I have my- I was thinking about that I agree it's a discrete unit of storytelling and I agree it's like it's like the atom of storytelling like beats me are like the subatomic particles I guess and every individual frames I guess the quarks. But I think there is something I picked up from theatre which I actually think is really useful in terms of screenwriting which is there's the classical unities and despite the name they're not from the classical period that's kind of the idea of the French well made play I think is where they came from. That 1900s and the idea is that in a play you have unity of space unity of time and unity of action and I actually think that is a really good understanding of what a scene is is that a scene like it's a spectrum and at some point I'll talk about these unities intensive like unity of form and other stuff. But you need your time you need space you need action most scenes have those three of them sometimes montages kind of have to.

Chas Fisher

I mean montage almost by definition is a collection of moments different scenes even though they might be a scene.

Stu Willis

But as a unit of storytelling right it definitely has unity of action and I think then the question is like what do we mean by action and I think action for me then is kind of like character action that there's a unity of the characters action that they, you know coming back to the mammoth thing which we've talked about before is a character turns up with a pressing need to be in the same right they've got a like classical like oh, I carry to want something to have an intention that's why they begin the same and that is the unity of action and when that action is complete. Right now. Or thwarted you can't get a new scene right.

Chas Fisher

Well I agree with you but I also think this is kind of going to be like a gut feel sort of idea because I think you know you can definitely have single scenes where by the end of the scene all the characters have changed in terms of entering or exiting and it will still be the same scene like.

Stu Willis

I think it'll be the same location, but I think from a dramatic- look, maybe it feels esoteric, but I think you could probably look at the examples that we're going to run through today when you have a shift of characters, right? That actually becomes like dramatically a slight- it's a different scene, but it feels like it's got flow because you've got unity of time and you've got unity of space, but you don't necessarily have unity of action. You change the action, so it's kind of- but it feels connected because it's got that unifying Because, broadly...

Chas Fisher

While you and I I think we're we're quite structure oriented in our storytelling approaches and definitely like Draft Zero best had out but I also am an adherent of a gripping story just needs to be like a collection of scenes where you never lose interest right.

Stu Willis

There's a quite I think it's from Besson I should look it up which is like you know all you need is three good scenes and no bad ones.

Chas Fisher

Yeah and so I think there are writers out there who are more like less intellectual izing or rationalizing their their work and more going by gut instinct and then scenes might be even more crucially important to them because just so long as the reader and then subsequently the viewers engaged scene by scene then you should be fine you know and then maybe structure just comes back to the overall feeling you want the audience to leave with. But I bringing this back to questions it is possible that the questions being. Answer asked and answered within a scene is actually possibly the best way to define when a scene begins and ends because I feel like this will get released. Sufficiently in the future that we won't get slammed for spoilers but in succession. No no I'm gonna back it up okay there's there's a very is there is a very dramatic scene. Where it starts with just two characters on the phone to another character and at some point during that scene one of the character leaves to go and get a third character and bring them back into the scene and they're handling the phone from character to character so that there's lots of different interactions between. Usually just two characters and there's as many as you know four or five within the quote unquote scene but it never it still all feels like it is one scene because there is. There's many character questions being raised throughout that scene like what is the impact of the event on each of these characters those are character questions but the there's a there's an overriding single plot question for the whole scene which makes all of this coming and going still feel like one scene but.

Stu Willis

It probably has unity unity of action.

Chas Fisher

To your point it has unity of time and it has unity of space and it has unity of action.

Stu Willis

Yeah so I think it's look and that feels like as I said it could feel that feels like oh cool that's an analysis tool but it relates to the question and coming back to the idea that, there are writers out there that would just be writing from a place of character and this kind of structural stuff is I think part of it is the very simple but, Okay let's start with what is a plot question a plot question to me and anything on this in sequence episode is generally something like will they stop the bombing in time it's something related to physical action that the characters can take with a very clear often yes or no answer. You know like it should be that clear and the thing is when a character turns up to a scene with a want if they want something that is usually the plot question will they get what they want.

Chas Fisher

Also the big thing that to me distinguishes plot questions from other questions is they're very easily dramatizable like you can you can see the answer on screen whether in dialogue or or you know something visual whereas character questions are it's much harder to portray a clear answer to a character question without getting super cheesy because it's a question like it's an internalised question.

Stu Willis

When when will Chas and Stu realise that Chas is indeed Tom and Stu is indeed Greg.

Chas Fisher

That is incorrect.

Stu Willis

I haven't even watched the show. I just realised from everyone else's agitation over that characterisation is- That you are definitely Tom and I'm definitely Greg. Yeah, you're just Greg who doesn't do the work. I'm just scratching at. So the character comes in with a want and then they will, and then the plot is over, the scene is over when they kind of get what they want, or they don't, or they kind of get an answer that leads them into a new direction, right? Now that I think is actually related to point of view. So if you've got something that really is strict with audience character, like character and audience being aligned, that is really easy, right? And that means ideally we know what the character wants and suspense in the scene is about whether or not they will get it so I think part of the reason thinking about this stuff in terms of questions is you're really talking about the basic suspense of a story. You know there is a you've got enough information to ask a question right which is will this character get what they want that seems easy but the audience actually have to have the information to understand what the character wants. And then they when it's answered they have to get enough information to understand that the question has been answered in whatever form it is right.

Chas Fisher

So we're we're we're kind of as always heading back somewhat to narrative point of view because at any scene level if you're just talking about the character the character knows what they want all the time right the question is how much does the audience know and I guess like taking this esoteric stuff and trying to render it to the practical like nearly every. Piece of screenwriting guidance and you and I are about to go through this is like come into the same light and leave as early as you can right but then how do you define what is late and early and I think it will largely be defined by when, the audience is aware of the question being posed and subsequently answered within the scene.

Stu Willis

Yeah, using POV is an example of what we mean by that. To use the Hitchcock example, you've got the suspense is when you see a ticking bomb under a table and you see characters talking. That is a question that the audience asks that the characters are unaware of, right? So, the question becomes, when will they realise that there's a bomb under the table? And when they discover the bomb, that answers the question. And then you ask a new question is, will they be able to defuse it or will they be able to escape? The absence of that bomb if we just have the characters talking and then a bomb explodes it's not just surprise it has no suspense it has no. Plot question at all so thinking about your audience point of view can help you make questions happen if you've got a scene that is feeling a little bit Lucy goosey a little bit like not enough pressure on it. Then maybe it's because you need to reconfigure your order of events the audience ask questions before you go into that same.

Chas Fisher

All different kinds of questions but it's also why Rashomon effect works right because when you're revisiting even. You know you coming back to revisit the same story elements like the same plot developments but from a different perspective but the audience has more information than the characters in watching that scene so that you can then ask different questions.

Stu Willis

Yeah, so I reckon that this- the structure that we're kind of talking about is that there is a moment when the question is raised. Sometimes this with is in the scene. Sometimes it's the kind of the question it becomes as a response is the end of a previous scene, right? So the end of the scene raises the question, you know, and I think there's kind of this exploration of the question, which is a very vague term, and I think that's okay. And then you kind of get this kind of like what we've I think maybe in seeing showdowns will talking about it but there's like a big point often like a turn in the middle of the same, not always and then that cut and then there is an answering of the question on often the question the answering of the question raises a new question and that's the the the flowing of question and answer question and answer is what kind of builds plot that makes sense.

Chas Fisher

Yeah I think so I think I think when we get to the examples it will be easier to pass but also because I've got some questions you know around like whether you can have a scene that doesn't have, any questions for the audience at all like is there a scene where the audience is just sitting back not actively engaging in trying to answer a question.

Stu Willis

Right, and look to give you a clear example of a question and answer in a scene and how it uses to structure a scene I want to play something from the TV series of Loki right. Now the excerpts that we're going to play today you can obviously hear but it may be better to watch them and we posting clips on our Patreon as public posts so you don't have to sign up to Patreon but please consider. On our Twitter and our Instagram so links will be in our show notes so you can see the clips as we post them. Cross fingers no copyright holds this is educational purposes right. So in in Loki season 1 episode 3 Loki and Sylvie crash land on a planet I think it's called Lamentis 1 right and basically the whole episode the central dramatic question of the episode is will they get off the planet. Right and that's a very clear plot question because the answer is either yes or no. Within the plotting of that is there's a series of basically like I guess you call a mini goals and this leads them to a scene they basically their first thing is like oh let's go and see there's someone with power up on that over there yonder let's let's.

16:30 Loki

Chas Fisher

Because they need the the the initial plot question is we are device for getting us out of here needs power so where can we find a power source is the question being raised.

Stu Willis

The very kind of like the mission that they have to achieve yet and so they go and then trundle off to, this house and this is what happens.

From the film

A train station is the edge of town, but you'll never get a ticket.

Stu Willis

We now cut to a wide shot of this space train station with refugees lined up trying to get onto the space train and we find Loki and Sylvie making their way to the entrance.

From the film

Been waiting in line for hours. Well, this looks fun. Come on. We can't fight our way into that train. You said anything about fighting. All your plans involve fighting. Not this one. I'm going to enchant a guard, have him lead us through the crowd, and if anyone gives us any trouble... Make him start shooting? And then what? Kill every guard and hijack the train? Whether or not there's a fight is entirely up to them. We're doing this one my way. How do I look? Like someone with a shit plan. It's a great plan. Just follow my lead.

Stu Willis

Loki casts an illusion on himself to make himself look like a guard and he escorts Sylvie as if she's a prisoner up to the front of the line.

From the film

This one to Sheru. OK. And the tickets? Orders come from the top to get her on this train.

Stu Willis

Sir, this… Sylvie touches the guard on the shoulder and takes control of him.

From the film

Everything OK? Yeah, everything's fine. Yeah, I just remembered that headquarters radioed in their request for them this morning.

Stu Willis

OK. OK. OK. Literally they ask the question they are thwarted they are to again quote David Mamet educated that another way exists like like the character to oh you need to do this and then you see them going down to the try to get on the train and the question is will they get on on the train. Right in the answer is yes and then that when they're on the train the new question becomes will they be caught and the answer is yes.

From the film

Can I see your tickets? You again hello tickets yes of course here they are. So it looks lovely isn't it is this really necessary there is a simple explanation.

Chas Fisher

But the the nice thing about all those sequences is they give you an opportunity yes there it keeps the audience engaged because there's you know the like you said questions create suspense the audience is leaning forward asking and engaging and. You know thrillers trade in this all the time the more quite plot questions you ask the more intellectually you are leaning forward where what I like about this is that it reveals both Sylvie and Loki's tactics because Sylvie is a relatively new character in at this stage of the show and then it shows them trying the same tactics again and failing when they're actually caught in the.

Stu Willis

Well you can't get the midpoint right so you have Loki doing his strategy and it fails and so you get Sylvie that's the midpoint and then Sylvie has to take over and then they win so it's something to think about as well as like a you could cut like the ebb and flow of your characters winning and losing right. The questions here is super clear like.

Chas Fisher

They literally vocalised out loud.

Stu Willis

And it works I'm not saying this is the greatest thing ever but it works and it means people and this is kind of the point of view stuff where we're super aligned with the character point of view right but do you think there's any character questions in this.

Chas Fisher

If there are they're very very minor there's a few beats of Sylvie not believing Loki will pull this off and that's ultimately proven to be true and and Loki being, you Kind of arrogant and hubristic which is like his kind of running condition I guess but not very very few these are nearly all there's there's nothing in turn like if the question raised in the characters will Loki learn that his confidence in his own abilities is somewhat misplaced. That is not if it's raised it's not answered in this scene at all.

Stu Willis

And look, if you go back to our sequence episodes, there are questions you raise within a scene that are answered over multiple scenes, right? And it's kind of the nesting of these things that gives you a larger structure, but we're looking at, like, little scenes. So let's talk character questions. You've suggested two examples, the first of which is The Last Crusade, and then we'll do a scene from The Bourne Supremacy. But let's start with The Last Crusade, right? And I think what is interesting about this is it's an example of that nesting that we're just talking about, which is there's kind of a plot question, very similar. Instead of like, do we get onto the space train? It's like, can we get onto the Nazi blimp? Same thing, right?

23:24 The Last Crusade

Chas Fisher

Yeah.

Stu Willis

And then and then they have the moment of Indy- And what's- I've forgotten his dad's name.

Chas Fisher

Henry Jones. James Bond.

Stu Willis

Oh, Henry Jones. You just watch- You just watch this.

Chas Fisher

Indy's junior. Henry Jones jr they have the same name anyway yes I have looked at this came to mind right because I watch it with my kids the other night and you were putting calls out for like very clearly character driven scenes and I just when I was watching the film it's not the whole. Sequence that attracted my attention it was after they've resolved the plot question of will they get on the blimp and will the blimp take off. And they resolve that when Indy throws the Nazi out of the out of the blimp and the blimp takes off and sails away. And then the doctor Jones's plural a sitting and it's the scene that we've kind of been waiting for the whole movie.

From the film

Sharing your adventures is an interesting experience. It's not always shared it's disgraceful you're old enough to be her grandfather. I'm as human as the next man. I was the next man. Curse my ships that passion the night. Do you remember the last time we had a quiet drink? I had a milkshake. What did we talk about? We didn't talk. We never talked. Do I detect a rebuke? A regret. It was just the two of us, Dad. It was a lonely way to grow up. For you, too. If you'd been an ordinary, average father, like the other guys' dads, you'd have understood that. Actually, I was a wonderful father. Did I ever tell you to eat up, go to bed, wash your ears, do your homework? No. I respected your privacy, and I taught you self-reliance. What you taught me was that I was less important to you than people who'd been dead for 500 years in another country. And I learned it so well that we've hardly spoken for 20 years. You left just when you were becoming interesting. Dad, I can't. I'm here now. Now, what do you want to talk about, hmm? I... I can't think of anything. Then what are you complaining about? Look, we have work to do. When we get to Alexandretta, we will face three challenges. First, the breath of God. Only the penitent man will pass. Second, the word of God. Only in the footsteps of God will he proceed. Third, the path of God. Only in a leap from the lion's head will he prove his worth. What does that mean? I don't know. We'll find out. We're turning around. They're taking us back to Germany.

Chas Fisher

So, the question posed by this little scene, and it starts with Indy kind of making an overture to his dad, like, basically trying to complain about his parenting. But it actually kind of is articulated after they get there they have an argument about Sean Connery's parenting but when they both express themselves the question then that Sean Connery asks is well here I am what do you want to talk about right you know you you have access to your father and I think I don't know how to articulate it this but maybe the character question being posed by this scene is Will Indy. Forgive. Resolve his issues with his father. Which is a very internalised thing.

Stu Willis

And it's and as we talked about in the sequences episode character questions are offering quite like a little bit necessarily more vague but that is almost there defining characteristic against plot questions is that the character questions are vaguer.

Chas Fisher

I know this is this is an amazing part of I think definitely Raiders and you know we've used Raiders for exposition here but they they use they the resolution of this character question where they actually kind of come together as father and son, They then then gives them the space of what would two eminent archaeologists obsessed with the Grail low Henry Jones senior is a medieval literature professor not an archaeologist but what would they actually talk about and then it allows them to get back into exposition about the Grail journey because that is what they would genuinely talk about.

Stu Willis

And I think what's interesting about this scene, or kind of that nesting structure, is it feels like after they've thrown the Nazi off, right, the plot question of will they get caught isn't, like, it's there, but it's not super active, like, it doesn't, the film isn't drawing attention to it in the same way that the Loki, in the Loki example, pretty early on, the guards are like, yeah, that's them, right? In this there's the plot doesn't reconnect of like until the very end the button at the same so it's almost like it's completely answered this plot question of will they be able to get on the blimp and I was going to say sail away float away float away and then it's kind of the plot. Disappears for a moment right the immediate plot question right and that gives space for something that is more character orientated.

Chas Fisher

Well they they could have not had that scene in there right from from a story perspective right they they could have thrown the Nazi out the window taken off and then Sunday all day turning around the radio has happened right they could have kept the intellectual the plot driven questions us leaning forward can the pace up but they deliberately then. Slow everything down so that they can have this character.

Stu Willis

There is a version of this same where you kind of see someone looking at them and paying attention and the audience instead of engaging with a character question is engaging with their I'll look there being watched, they're going to get caught right so that's I guess what we mean by like this the questions there but it's it's less about, That and it's more about putting in the moment I guess maybe that's kind of maybe one of the key things about the same questions we talk about the moment by moment but then audience can have complexities. Right of of of emotion with the film but the moment by moment the film making is telling you pay attention to this character stuff by literally not shifting our attention to something else and saying all that someone's watching them right because we just won't get to enjoy it as much.

Chas Fisher

I get ya and and what you can see is what we're talking about is the control right of the the writers and filmmakers of the questions of the audience is asking so they very. Deliberately in this scene started with tension and and and plot driven questions will the Joneses escape right and then they. They seemingly resolve that I know you say you know we we know from watching the film that you know that the blimp turns around in the you know that the plot kicks back in.

Stu Willis

That's what I'm saying the plot interfere intervenes at the very end as opposed to it being something that is like under this whole scene it doesn't play it as tense.

Chas Fisher

But in terms of introducing the character question, they've resolved the plot question, they've got a wide of the blimp sailing away, and then they've got them just sitting, having a drink quietly, not saying anything. It's having to deliberately take a beat to not pose any plot questions. And then Indy, you know, ventures his own internal angst, you know, like, how long has it been since we last had a drink like this?

33:03 The Bourne Supremacy

Stu Willis

We done with Last Crusade to move on to a similar kind of character example in the Bourne Supremacy this again is another Chas one did you want to kind of give us the context.

Chas Fisher

Again like my way of doing this is like there these scenes and films that stand out to me as being like really powerful and then I go back and go well why were they so powerful for me and this is in the Bourne Supremacy which is again you know if anything far more. Plot driven like you know tension question question question plot question plus question resolution like it's so intense right and this is my favourite of all the the Bourne franchise the second one but then. It's right near the end is not the final scene but Bourne has escaped they've resolved all the the plot questions of you know will Bourne survive will Bourne escape he has he's escaped and we don't. Really understand why Bourne was even in this town in the first place thing it's in Russia or is it in the Ukraine.

Stu Willis

Yeah I was going to ask from my memory I rewatched the same but I didn't rewatch the whole film and I was like do we even know why he's there because I've got a feeling that we just know he wants to get there and we don't know what he wants so one of the question becomes why is Bourne there that's a very different feeling for the audience.

Chas Fisher

And and they they let that question is obviously like there initially when he's arrived but they they go they've they replace that question very quickly with will Bourne survive will Bourne get caught will the will he kill the other assassin that's chasing after him so they resolve all those plot questions and then we cut to a character whom we've never seen before. Right and it's a young woman and we know the Bourne has been trying to answer. How he ended up in the water who was he as an assassin what was his mission those kind of that's the kind of overriding mystery but again these are all dramatizable kind of plot questions and-

Stu Willis

The beginning of the scene is in Russian so I'm going to read it aloud in English.

From the film

Quiet. Silence. Okay.

Stu Willis

Don't have any money or drugs is that what you want? Sit down sit down. Take the chair.

From the film

I speak English. I'm not gonna hurt you. I won't hurt you. You're older. Older than I thought you'd be. That picture. Does that mean a lot to you? I don't know. Does that mean a lot to you? It's nothing. It's just a picture. No. It's because you don't know how they died. I do. No, you don't. I would want to know. I would want to know that my mother didn't kill my father. That she didn't kill herself. What? It's not what happened to your parents. Killed I Killed That was my job It was my first time Your father was supposed to be alone But then your mother came out of nowhere and I had to change my plan. It changes things, that knowledge, doesn't it? When what you love gets taken from you, You want to know the truth? I'm sorry. Sorry.

Chas Fisher

In the scene initially the way they've chosen to do it they could have had. They could have resolved for the audience who this woman is right they could have had a walking with a friend and she's talking to each other in there you know talking about her past she could have been in a psychiatrist office talking about the trauma of her parents murder suicide or all those things but the filmmakers decided to deliberately still have a plot question entering into the scene who is this woman why are we watching her right and then we come in and she she's in her kitchen and there's chase.

Stu Willis

Do you think who is this person's a plot question I've got a feeling it's like the fundamental character question possibly like in the same way that all plot questions are like will I get what they want. You know I'm not all questions but that's kind of like a super question like who is this person is kind of like.

Chas Fisher

Yeah I think that's fair I guess the plot question is like who is this person in relation to Jason Bourne.

Stu Willis

Oh yeah I mean look from the way it's structured I want you to go back to your your your monologue but you know but when you come into the scene right. He's like quiet, silence, okay, and she's like- and she is terrified of him. He's sitting on the chair in control of the situation. He's saying, sit down, sit down, take the chair. And you're like, what is he up to? Is he going to hurt her, right? Because that's what she is thinking. And the scene actually is played from her point of view. And that maybe is why I'm asking that question of, will he hurt her? Because we are in a follow shot coming in and finding Bourne there. So I think it's done a subtle job the directing is on a subtle job of make us feel afraid of is born going to hurt her because that is the question that she is asking in that scene herself.

Chas Fisher

Yeah but they are those are plot questions right there very easily dramatizable.

Stu Willis

Yeah I think I'm just I'm just trying to be like that is the I agree that their plot questions I just think who is this person isn't necessarily a plot question but.

Chas Fisher

Yeah I think I think that's fair.

Stu Willis

Who is this person and will they get hurt by Jason is it this is a good example of pot character I guess.

Chas Fisher

Yeah and they deliberately set it up this way right because they could have been taking these plot questions off the table like they want this scene to start with mystery. First right but they then very quickly kind of try and take mystery off the table like he's he tells her that he's not going to hurt her he tries to put the gun away to make her feel somewhat safer but she doesn't she's having her home invaded by a strange man right who's bleeding but- but it's when he asked her about the picture of her family the we as the audience suddenly know definitely who she is. Yeah right we know that she is the daughter of the people that he killed and then the question by doing that becomes a lot more internalised. Yet right because we start asking why is Jason Bourne doing this why was it so important what does he want from this girl why was it so important for him to risk his life to have this conversation with her. And to do that, they've had to remove all these plot questions. Yeah. And then it becomes so incredibly powerful because he's just there to tell her that her mother didn't murder her father and that he didn't- and then did not commit suicide. He wants her to not suffer under the illusion of his, you know, his original sin. What do you want is I mean I guess he wants a maybe a measure of forgiveness but he never asked for it he doesn't I he doesn't expect to be forgiven he doesn't try to be forgiven that's not his tactics here he's just trying to give something to her.

Stu Willis

Well I do think it's I think it's also he's not here it's not just not his tactics it's just not his character at this point and interesting and look I'm just going to. Legitimately raises question if my gut instinct is a character wanting forgiveness is a good example of a plot character question as in like wanting forgiveness is something that you can easily dramatize. Yeah. Right but speaks to character so it's kind of both whereas this makes us ask more questions about Bourne because it is a vague of why did he do this what did he want you know.

Chas Fisher

So the only reason I think those two scenes leapt out at me when I was watching these very plot heavy films is because they were plot character scenes or even just character scenes but in both of them, look this isn't definitive but the the filmmakers have had to work very hard to answer all the plot questions so that then they can pose a character question to allow that character question to bubble up.

Stu Willis

So, I reckon you'd find these kinds of scenes... I mean I suppose Last Crusade was one of those kinds of scenes but particularly something that's more profound either when we haven't asked the plot question yet like at the beginning of the film or we've answered the Central Dramatic question at the end of the film, you might also get something like it's going to be it like basically those larger structural turning points where a larger sequence question is answered right so often you'll get the, you know I mean kind of spoilers but not really like Dungeons and Dragons has a classic like the group dealing with all their shit before the final mission, Right because it's like the sequence question of the previous sequence of getting the doohickey to do the doohackey they've done that right and then they have a moment of like character work and then they go and do the final mission. Or you're going to get it at the beginning before the character like before the plot question is raised because the big isn't the kind of like you either start with a plot question. Right which can be like Tom Cruise saying in the back of a SpaceX rocket going to space and like who is the SpaceX rocket going to blow up before Tom Cruise stops it and the answer is yes. SpaceX will definitely blow up.

Chas Fisher

I what are the scenes that you made to doing was the introduction of in Pulp Fiction of Jules and Vincent Vega and I think I think that proves your point right like in that scene there are some vague plot questions like where are these people going. What are they trying to do right but that but those are really those questions are posed I feel like once they're in there that when there's a change of location when then from the car and they're actually in the corridor walking towards they're still having you know discussions around foot massages but then. The dramatisation of it the fact that they're now walking to a door is prompting the audience ago what's behind the door where are these people going but that initial scene in the car I think you're right that is pure character who are these people there might be a little bit of why are we watching. Them but I which is you know heading a little bit towards pushing the audience back into more thematic questions more being aware of the storytelling and what it's trying to do on them but I think you're right before a when when characters are being introduced before a plot question is, is raised then you are asking pure character questions.

Stu Willis

So, do you think we should do the kind of- there's like two scenes back- like I would argue that they're two scenes in the opening of Queen & Slim. So, Queen & Slim opens with two characters on a date, and a date's a great opening because aren't dates just asking and answering character questions about each other on some level, right? And they're in their car going home. And there's a- there is a plot question on some level which which one of the characters- Vocalises. Vocalises which is are you going to come home with me right.

45:50 Queen and Slim

Chas Fisher

Well I think it's the other way like do you think you're going to come home and have sex with me.

Stu Willis

Yeah yeah am I going to get lucky the answer is no right but that is the question that is that structures that saying and it's good example of pot character question because again it is something that is clearly dramatizable but it speaks to character.

From the film

You know you really shouldn't text and drive. Ain't nobody texting I'm making sure I don't get lost. I could tell you how to get to my house. Give me my phone. Relax I'm going to give it back. She going to tell me where to turn? Yeah, just... Oh, so now you're going pointy directions. I'm telling you where to go. You made a playlist? That's cute. Don't go to my phone. Did you like in a sentimental mood before or after Love Jones? I knew about that shit way before Love Jones. Don't lie. You know, okay, I'll fuck with it more after I saw the movie. I appreciate your honesty. So what happens tonight? You're going to drop me off and then you'll go home I guess. Did you think we were going to have sex? I, thought we're going to hang out. Maybe get to know each other. No, I'm good.

Stu Willis

You know I like her answer there is is it reflected her character but something that we can easily dramatise but there is a French a French scene change the addition of another character and this becomes the inciting incident of this film for those you haven't seen it right and smile spoilers but it happens like less than 10 minutes into the film is that they're pulled over by a police officer. No, I'm good. Slim takes his phone back from Queen, causing him to swerve a bit. Then he switches lane without signalling. Just as he picks up speed, he hears a horrifying sound. Whoop! Whoop! Madison's worst nightmare.

From the film

What's your hand down? He only had it up because you're shining a light in his eyes. I'm just trying to see inside the vehicle. It's just us. License and registration. Grabbing my wallet. I can see that. We all like to shoot first and ask questions later, so... You got something you want to say to me? No, I don't, You know why I stopped you tonight, no, sir Failed to execute a turn signal back there swerving a little bit to Oh, my bad. Yeah, it is. 1104 dispatch. What do you got? Two occupants, driver's a black male, passenger black female, and a white Honda Accord. License, trust, God. Operator failed to execute a turn signal. who's driving radically possible DUI over. Negative. Go ahead and ask him to step out of the vehicle for me. Can I ask why officer? No, you may not. Just about a car. Let's go, man. Back bumper right there, hands on the hood. Can I ask you one time, you got anything on you I need to know about? No, sir. Illegal substances? No, sir. What about in the vehicle? No, sir. You drinking tonight? No. Why is that funny? Because I don't drink. Do me a favor, Pop Trunk. Why? Because I asked you to. Ain't nothing in there but shoeboxes. I see them. Right there. May I help you? Do you have a warrant? Maybe he's already agreed to the search. I don't need a warrant. What's in the boxes? Shoes. You mind if I take a look? That's fine. Roger, 219 dispatcher, I'll be seeing you in a minute. Would you please hurry up? What did you say? It's just cold.

Stu Willis

At this point the officer draws his side arm and pointed directly at Slim. Tell you get back in the fucking car get back in the car get back in the car we got this sir we don't have what is your badge number sir it was a turn signal ain't done nothing wrong she collapses to the ground and hits her head on the pavement slim screams for her he tries to run towards her but Officer Reed grabs him by the shoulders and slams him on the ground Officer Reed and slim roll around on the ground for a few seconds until Officer Reed finally pin Slim to the ground and points the gun at his face. Don't move. Officer Reed sees Queen trying to get up. He points his gun at her again while the officer's attention is diverted. Slim knocks the firearm out of his hand. When the gun goes flying, Officer Reed reaches for it but Slim gets to it first. When Slim turns around, he sees Officer Reed lunging towards him. Slim flies the gun. Boom! He shoots Officer Reed in the neck, killing him instantly. Slim drops the gun and stops breathing. Queen muffles her own scream. Officer Reed's lifeless body lies on the pavement. Queen applies pressure to her fresh wound and winces in pain. Slim gets up and runs to her side. He sees the blood running down her leg. You good?

From the film

Huh? You okay? Let's go. We can't just leave him here. Yes we can. Now let's go.

Stu Willis

You haven't worked out from the audio example that two black people in the car it's a white police officer pulling them over one of them is we will learn Queen is a lawyer. Right so she is definitely aware of the rights in the situation but the situation turns very bad very quickly. And I think the plot question starts at the beginning scene is raised by this beginning of saying by the characters the reaction of the characters right which is that Queen as soon as they hear that sound which the script describes as whoop whoop every black person's worst nightmare right that's what the script says but to really make us experiences as an audience which is Queen starts interrogating Slim do you have any warrants do you she starts asking questions about him she is worried. And then she even says under her breath well you all like to shoot first ask questions later Queen's concern of will we survive this traffic stop is actually the plot question of this scene and then that question is escalated. Buy a midpoint shift in the script that really escalates the situation which is obvious which is when the police officer draws his gun but it's in response to Slim saying can you please hurry up I'm cold right and then that is kind of made even worse by Queen getting out of the car. Yeah.

Chas Fisher

Or just to- like, first of all, I was interested why you raised this as an example as being a quote unquote plot character scene because it feels very plotty as soon as the cop arrives, right? Like, there's- there's just this tension in the air. Will they survive this traffic stop? Will it escalate? Will something go horribly wrong? But the more that I was thinking about it is... Every time there's an escalation, it's prompted by Slim's- Slim asking a question of the police officer. And now, just to be clear, I'm not saying that Slim should not have- I'm not putting any- like, Slim was asking perfectly reasonable questions, like, why do I have to get out of the car? Why do you have to look in my trunk? How long is this going to take? I'm feeling cold, you know, laughing at the- out of nerves. Over being asked to have a drink but every time Slim initiates it it pushes the cop and I guess it's because the cop feels like as soon as Slim is in any way expecting to be treated like a person that is kind of aggravating the cops intentions here where he wants to make Slim not feel like a person. And so the cop escalates every time Slim acts like he's a normal person with normal rights who wants to be treated with dignity and respect.

Stu Willis

Yeah I mean it's a tense scene and I agree with you it is definitely it starts with very plot light and this is why this is why I wanted to it's plot like a bad character right so the plot question of will they go home and then there is an addition of another character that changes the question it's got unity of time and unity of space but the unity of action changes.

Chas Fisher

So it goes from being a character scene to being a plot scene.

Stu Willis

But I think it's interesting because it's definitely you feel a plot but I definitely think because we're at an early stage of the film but I don't know if you had this feeling but part of it is you don't know how these characters are going to act in this situation. Right so there is character questions how are they going to handle themselves. Yeah. Right so.

Chas Fisher

Who are these people in the face of this extreme pressure.

Stu Willis

And because it is and it's Queen at the end Queenie who is like we've got to go on the run. Right so it's a shift it's a revelation of character from her right so it kind of answers this question of who are these people which literally starts on their their Tinder date so I just thought it was an interesting example of that kind of shifting from a character to a plot question right and how that plot question can be raised by the introduction of another character and that is obviously a stereotype I mean it's a traffic. Stop you know a white officer with 2 2 2 black people.

Chas Fisher

White officer alone importantly.

Stu Willis

Yes.

Chas Fisher

But it but in the same way that in the Last Crusade scene there was a character seen and then the plot.

Stu Willis

Intervened.

Chas Fisher

Intervened.

Stu Willis

Yeah I mean I like that word because there's a difference between the plot intervening and there's a plot question that is kind of answered it's like the question is thrusted into your face or reason ugly head and we have no reason like as soon as those lights flash. I guess with the question is raised though there is this moment about them kind of fighting over the phone in the car and we see it we go it's kind of amusing but also you've you know enough to be like necessarily go well I didn't maybe I'm just conscious of it because they, introduced more stricter controls around a scroll apparently we can't scroll on our phones even if they're mounted in the car my page turning is ok but scrolling.

Chas Fisher

So like just to give an example right in in the The Last Crusade they could have because it the character scene led into plot exposition like the Henry Jones senior was talking about the test that they going to go through and they could have then. Cut to being in the Middle East right that could have been a segue into that next sequence but this is an Indiana Jones movie and you got to have a fucking plane escape right. Yeah right so they just needed the plot intervene for pacing reasons now this like you said the plot intervenes because it's the. The inciting incident of the whole story but I think on a micro level like when we were doing our antagonist series and we were looking at how it's different when you can't negotiate with the antagonist like particularly nature antagonist right you can't sit down and bargain with a wolf or a shark or a tidal wave or a tornado and that's what this felt like.

Stu Willis

The power imbalance is so extreme that he can't do anything but whatever he does he's going to escalate the situation.

Chas Fisher

And it's interesting to me that that he changes tactics like it, you know Slim is like trying to say recognise me as a human being that I'm okay that I have rights that I have dignity treat me like a normal person until, the cop pulls the gun and then he's like just do what he says get back in the car like then he's immediately you know he changes his tactic where is the cop pulling the gun escalates Queen's tactics, She then gets out of the car she then intervenes she says I'm I'm reaching for my cell phone I'm an attorney you know.

Stu Willis

Yeah that's a great analysis and it is an example of that kind of midpoint shift within a scene right so the largest a instruction location if there's a date the cop arrives is kind of like a midpoint to that but the cop drawing his gun yes escalates the scene but it's definitely a turn within the scene. And then that raises a new question of will the gun go off will someone got shot and the answer is yes and the answer to that question which is yes someone got shot it was the cop is like what now. Right what happens now and then they decide to go on the run and then the question becomes you know how long can they keep this up and the answer is not long.

Chas Fisher

I have not seen this film I only saw the opening for this. It's good.

Stu Willis

It's got some great, it's got some great moments because in the end it's, it's this, they've done it like, yeah, it kind of feels like a little bit of like that Bonnie and Clyde kind of like Crimson the run romance. But from what an age because it comes from. A Tinder date, like them beginning to kind of like fall for each other, but I think they've done a good job of like, there's enough chemistry with them in the car that you're like, yeah, maybe it isn't going great, but in other circumstances, I don't know. It's great. Speaking of kind of stuff that is dealing with like race issues, I want to do a scene from Do the Right Thing because we haven't done a theme scene yet. We've done a lot of plot and we've done a lot of character. And Do the Right Thing is an incredibly thematic film that actually plays a lot with film form and breaking the fourth wall and stuff like that which is in this moment that you'll see you have you seen Do the Right Thing.

1:03:03 Do The Right Thing

Chas Fisher

I have not like I realised just by playing framed recently that my African American. Shameless is disproportionately large there's so many classics of African-American cinema that I just have not seen a lot of Spike Lee films but I haven't seen fucking Do the Right Thing.

Stu Willis

Yeah yeah I mean I haven't actually sadly haven't seen that many of Spike Lee things and it was one of my my friend Kush who made me watch Do the Right Thing because he was connected more to the hip hop scene and stuff like that so he's kind of like interesting African-American cinema is quite high. Anyway I I think it's like coming into this with no context is better right so essentially you've got two characters in the same Radio Raheem and Mookie. Radio Raheem is the character with the beatbox which you can probably hear he's got these kind of like I don't you want to call them grills but like knuckle dusters basically one with love and hate and then Mookie is just a pizza delivery a guy for Sal's pizzeria and so they have this if they cross in the street and have this interaction.

From the film

I got to make you deliveries and I'll check you back there, right? I'm the rebound. Thank you. Oh, shit. Let me check it out. That's the hype! Lewis Leydas. Let me tell you the story of right hand, left hand. It's a tale of good and evil. Hate. It was with this hand that Cain iced his brother. Love. These five fingers, they go straight to the soul of man. The right hand. The hand of love. The story of life is this. Static. One hand is always fighting the other hand. And the left hand is kicking much ass. I mean, it looks like the right hand love is finished. But hold on, stop the pressure, the right hand's coming back. Yeah, he got the left hand on the ropes now, that's right. Yeah, ooh, it's a devastating right. Love and hate is dark as f***ing hell! Oh! Oh! Left-hand hate! K.O. by love. If I love you, I love you. But if I hate you... There it is. Love and hate. I love you, bro. You're the best. Radio Raheem. Check the label. Peace.

Stu Willis

And I did you see this is thematic I put this in thematic because I'm like I don't know what the plug question is it is the plug question is the like will I make you get back to sales will he deliver the pizza in time.

Chas Fisher

Having watched this in complete isolation and I just want to be I guess reiterate what you and I define as being a thematic question. A thematic question to me is prompting the audience to go why am I watching this. Right so you're generally not learning necessarily anything about the the characters or. Mike is not put you not answering who is this character internally or what do they want and you're not answering any asking any plot questions and I think you're absolutely right there's definitely no plot question. Post like they just meet in the street and start having a chat and Mookie notices the new knuckle dusters and then. Then that that wonderful scene comes from it and I love how Radio Raheem kind of drifts off at the end going like he he kind of he's been inspired to like have this whole statement about love and hate and the and you know how it relates to boxing and life and then he's kind of like. But where do I sit in all of this right so I think there's definitely a character question posed in there and my because I watched it out of context if I had met Radio Raheem. Earlier in the film and I don't know if I have and I know who he is then this would feel more thematic to me then if he's. Being introduced in the scene because then I'm going who is this guy is this do you see what I mean like this.

Stu Willis

Yeah I do but I actually think coming like I as preparation for this episode we listen to our arguments of the same episode right and that was about how we talked a lot about world view and characters world view and the thing coming through how the characters perceive the world. I think this is a great example of of kind of cat a character thing. Same right that it ultimately theme is probably going to be emerging from your character so as we asking character questions about our characters were asking questions about theme. Right I I think it'd be interesting to see if you can do I mean maybe the example we did from Apocalypse Now with Stephen Cleary in our theme in X sequences episode is more pure theme because it's not about the characters but here when we're talking about some of the film is ultimately about racial politics. And racial violence right it is going to be connected to characters like on this level they've done it on a level it could be about institutionalised brutality right like I guess maybe Detroit is that that which you haven't seen either but you know is it African American cinema given it's it's a right right and right, white director I don't know. So I think that's I think that's why I want to play this I think it's kind of an example of this I don't think we need to be taxonomical in terms of I'm doing a character scene or I'm doing a theme scene but the question is when to me the question is when does the audience ask that raise the question themselves when do they have that moment.

Chas Fisher

I do think this is one of those examples where this is not a purely writing thing like the.

Stu Willis

The directing.

Chas Fisher

Execution and the directing and the cinematography also controls these questions because when we first meet Raheem I think the question is a pure character question who is Raheem right and then he and then he starts on on this incredible monologue and you're like ok this is kind of who Raheem is but because the camera is so square on to him and the the love and hate. Take up so much of the frame when they come out it becomes less about Raheem and what he's talking about until like I said you get to that point at the end where Raheem kind of drifts off a little bit and is uncertain as to where he sits in the in this whole world view. Then it becomes a little bit then the question for me then became a character question of how does Raheem sit in his own worldview that he's just espoused so I think it does. You, I think it starts off with a character question deliberately moves us into why are we watching this what is this saying about everything else what is Spike Lee as a writer director trying to tell us in this moment and then goes back into who Raheem is.

Stu Willis

Yeah look I think the directing helps raise that question right so yes it goes from like a two shot profile so you see, Mookie and Radio Raheem and then the camera unmotivated by action so it's very like our point of view rotates 90 degrees so Radio Raheem is speaking right at camera and as much as he's saying that he's directing a writer could imply like have a moment Radio Raheem, two camera like breaking the fourth wall to indicate that is the point that the, the character needs that the audience needs to ask the question of like holy shit why are they talking at me and that is an observation you're making about promising young woman about the kind of like in territory on. Down the barrel almost documentary style of the way they shot some of those scenes because it's about you being confronted by what these characters are saying and so that is something I don't know what I should check in promising young woman whether she actually called that out in the script but it's definitely meant to be. Unsurprisingly, the directing of writing is about supporting the writing.

Chas Fisher

For sure and look if I were like this is purely subjective and I need you know this no way I can write do the right thing but if I was going to now right you know. This is going to be to camera straight down the barrel I would almost say before the monologue I even get into it why I'm doing that. Yeah. I would say this character is talking straight to us as the audience you know like it basically trying to in words say the effect that the the the directing the cinematography.

Stu Willis

Yeah I think that would actually be if anything is like tips and tricks I completely agree I would probably do the same thing because you don't want someone going why are you doing this you actually want the reader to be like I understand oh I'm smart I know what you're doing. It's just an example of interesting patterning that we've noticed before is we now follow Radio Raheem into Sal's pizzeria right and, Sal's Pizzeria the conflict the Sal's Pizzeria is kind of what ends up defining much of the film, so we've gone from something that is like character theme to a scene where Radio Raheem comes into a pizzeria Sal demands a Radio Raheem turns off his beatbox and Radio Raheem is initially resistant right there is a lot of pre-existing racial tension between these we've that's been the kind of the build up, Radio Raheem ultimately gives in and then orders his pizza and Sal's like, oh yeah, you know, like, so there's a very clear plot. It's a very quick plot question. It's just good example of modulation, right? That you've had a scene, it's character theme that we've gone and then we've seen a scene that is thematically connected, right? Between like the tension between Sal and Radio Raheem, but it's very plot. It's plot based. It's just a very simple plot. Will Radio Raheem turn up his beatbox and will he order his pizza?

From the film

Yeah. You are disturbing my customers! Two slices. You come into Sal's, there's no music. No rap, no music, no music, no music. Capisce? Understand? Yo put some extra mozzarella on that motherfucker is shit extra cheese is $2.

Chas Fisher

The fact that they're they're playing fight the power and the power is trying to turn the music off is you know the so so loaded but. But you're right like it hopefully just by going into that that scene and again so if we're going to do key learnings and wrap ups I think what we could try and do is like. What did did observing that you know you can basically control character questions of a spectrum from at their most. Quote-unquote narrative or dramatic plot questions to their most I guess esoteric or abstract thematic questions with character being somewhere in the middle there what does being in control of those. When the audience is asking those questions give to the rider.

1:15:03 Key Learnings & Wrap Up

Stu Willis

I I would say that I would look through scenes and look we're about to do a cat is. She wants the thing is she wants a lap and she's pissed off that she can't sit on my lap while I'm at the desk.

Chas Fisher

And this is this is a Stu in the face of a an antagonist that he can't negotiate with.

Stu Willis

And the thing is maybe like yeah I don't know she doesn't bitch slap Emma so.

Chas Fisher

He's tried bribery and that has failed.

Stu Willis

That is definitely, well, she just took the bribe and came back. Thanks. I still want to laugh. Okay, I think if you're looking at a scene, I would start, I think to me, like going, when does the audience know to end? What question do I want the audience to be asking that creates the suspense? The reason to watch this scene, right? Like, there is a reason this is here and it's because you want to hold them in thrall. And look, it may, look, if you're doing, we're talking about stuff that is dramatic, not imagistic, or poetic, or some other kind of mode of filmmaking, right? I- but I like these questions. I talk about, like, someone like Stan Brakhage a lot. I'm not going to watch Stan Brakhage for two hours. I'm not going to watch, like, two minutes of Stan Brakhage, right? Because it just doesn't hold my attention. And we're talking about, like, holding- suspense, I guess, is holding your attention, right?

Chas Fisher

Why am I- But even something like Stalker, that just becomes very thematic.

Stu Willis

Yeah.

Chas Fisher

Right. Because we're just kind of sitting back and letting it wash over us and going like exploring our own feelings and reactions to the art rather than going what's happening. Yeah.

Stu Willis

Yeah. So I think being in control of when the audience knows to answer the question and knowing who your audience is. Loki is aimed at a younger audience. So the fact is its questions are going to be more explicit. Right so you can follow what's going on with one of the it's just slightly related but I actually think one of the genius things of Andor is because it's episodic it has catch ups every 30 minutes in a spy thriller telling you what's going on, and you can skip them but it basically just make it just reassures you you're following the threads of the story right where is I think you know you don't get something like that in in Zodiac or Mindhunter and, Actually, it's unrelated, but actually no, it's not unrelated because it helps you answer how bloody hell can I get out of here?

Chas Fisher

She just bitch slapped him.

Stu Willis

Again! Oh my god, um... Oh God, we have it on tape. Those questions, like those catch ups, those replays help the audience, what they are is controlling the audiences, the questions the audience are going to ask. Questions the audience are going to ask during the episode, right?

Chas Fisher

Yeah. And just to go back to Loki, and this also is, I think if you're engaging in any kind of, like you say, sort of narrative storytelling, That is not sort of imagistic or poetical then if you're showing something on screen the audience is going to be asking questions they're going to be asking primarily why am I watching this in any given scene at the beginning of the same. Like Stephen Cleary always reminds us that when you go into a new scene the audience starts asking like a series of questions to orient themselves where am I who's here and you know why am I watching this. Right and you know that you talked about those transitions from scene to scene so there's the questions are happening whether you're in control of them or not right is is the broad point that is how we interact with art but the thing that I really liked about Loki is I think there's a difference between a scene posing a question and and when it gets resolved we've looked at you know discreet scenes to kind of prove this point but the first episode of Loki. is basically. Loki has got no fucking clue what's going on and often the just question after question like we're trying to understand the rules of this world what's Loki's power where is he why are they doing this what who's Owen Wilson you know like. It's deliberately that first episode I loved it a lot the first episode I like it more than the plot here. Episodes of Loki felt almost like 1984 or Kafka you know because it was deliberately not answering questions it was just asking question after question after question. So there's the thing that I've taken from this and and you know the reason we were doing this topic is because we're about to dive into a rewrite where. So you finish the pass I'm following you polishing the pass but we're we've got too many pages which we know this was a deliberate choice we wanted to add all the stuff that we've been getting from feedback and now we're going to go back through it and focus on pacing and in our focusing on pacing we are essentially going to be asking like you said what is the question of each of those scenes when are we raising it can we you know come in later can we leave. Earlier is this when we've resolved that question and we've got a new question raised do we want to do that in a different scene do we want that whole beat at all.

Stu Willis

Yes I can be because you might have a moment where the almost like in the largest structures where you resolve the plot question and you just got space for a character question at the end. Right that is asked or answered you know you got a space for that you got space for theme at the end of a scene. You know and finally she's, sitting on my lap. Yeah so it's interesting though that you know when is it like there are spaces when you resolve plot questions that you could probably just sustain a moment if not longer of of character or theme and look to me a revelation of this stuff of you know plot character you know I mean that is no surprise that character and plot interrelated with the interrelationship between character and theme during this episode and going yeah you probably are going to have more often have, Scenes or moments within scenes that are about the interrelationship of character and theme then you are something that is purely thematic. It'll be like maybe someone's gonna find it a purely thematic scene and maybe it's gonna be something from like 2001 and they're gonna drop that in as the example maybe that's what it is something like that but I think that's gonna feel something more it's gonna feel more intellectual than emotionally emotional in terms of what theme is.

Chas Fisher

Yeah well I think there's a difference because we're talking about controlling the questions that the audience is asking right and we've done an episode on character worldview right and obviously every single characters worldview you've chosen these characters you've chosen what they think and how they experience about the world and that is going to be somewhat reflective. Hopefully in contrasting ways of what your whole story is about right so it's quite possible that you could look at that Radio Raheem scene as this is just a character talking about his worldview and it's only posing the. Character question of what does how does Raheem see the world right and without it being thematic now I think in this particular instance they've made it thematic through the performance of it so you know these are these are choices that you can make as a writer like do you want. The audience engaging more deeply with Raheem or with what Raheem is saying.

Stu Willis

I mean you know coming back to our choices and decision episodes episode you know the present presentation of the choice and the character making a decision is the character and the audience being aligned in terms of what the question is, which way the presentation of the choices which will what will the character choose will they you know go away you know will they go after their friend or will they save themselves. You know and that is his plot character so I think you'll start to see these patterning throughout and there are choices as you say but it's also like what you're choosing to show the audience I think the Bourne example which we talked to death but still struck me how good that is that they have structured in such a way to make that character I mean it's Gilroy right. I mean genius but like you structured in such a way to make that hit really hard in Paul Greengrass is directing emphasising that but that moment of like. I'm so we kind of in her moments got a bit of plopped goes into character like all that stuff is a lot of things to make that work and make you sit in with that but they've done it and that's why it's in the middle of an action film where is you know. Fast and Furious ain't gonna have shit like that that is for sure it's gonna be fun but it's gonna be like family.

Chas Fisher

Will he choose family. Well to go back to Dungeons and Dragons right like there is no thematic question posed at any of that point but that's not to say that all those plot character questions don't build up to a meaning at the end right I was so expertly manipulated by that film like the closing dramatic question of you know will he save his wife or will he save the actual you know pragmatic mother for his daughter. Is that dramatised choice that you know made me cry and swell up with tears but then ultimately that is the question of posed by the whole movie right what are you prepared to do for those you love.

Stu Willis

Pitch slap them in the face until they give you enough space in a lap she's very reluctantly on my lap by the way. This will be a lot more comfortable if you're on the couch Drew.

Chas Fisher

I guess the final observation and it's one that I've made throughout by just want to repeat it is like if you're wanting to have you know slow down the pace of your film dive into either a character question or thematic question the the effort that in each of those scenes these they had to go to to give space for that is is quite important so I think you have to understand that you will audiences I feel in most. Film and TV is an art form are looking for plot questions and you're going to have to take those off the table.

Stu Willis

They're related like the stuff that we're saying is light character a light plot questions really don't either have stakes or don't really have urgency or maybe a little bit of both right so there's a goal and so the question is will I achieve their goal. But it's not like oh my God there's a bomb or on my God the Nazis are watching them you know from a bar which is not what happens I specifically take that out. You know I'm all in the case of Loki you are they going to be able to get off the planet before it dies like those the urgency of that makes the question just drive the audiences and it pulls their attention. We're all ADHD in some ways.

Chas Fisher

Well yes and I keep banging on about this and I'm probably sound like a broken record but I just feel like we're so much more. Story and cinema literate as an audience so these things keep having to speed up because we're just we are processing story so much faster and because of that you know to have these moments that stick out you've got to actually do a bit of work to stop to. To reorient the audience and go actually no just sit for a moment and you know like you do your observation in the Neski scene that that they chose to have a follow shot of her.

Stu Willis

To come into the scene like where do we begin the scene how do you open the scene where do you start you don't actually start with him there you start with her coming in because that's when we raised the question of that she feels under threat.

Chas Fisher

But it but it's to put us as the audience in her point of view deliberately right so we are asking character questions who is this why are we following her you know plot relations who is she in relation to Jason Bourne and then but they deliberately they're very carefully kind of balancing in that mystery but also empathy like in the character work in the scene working in all the choices there to to lead into that moment.

Stu Willis

Yes I think part of your like the final final final underscore final question mark question is like when you're thinking about the question when it is raised I start thinking maybe it's worth thinking about from whose point of view it can be an omniscient audience point of view right but it could also be from a character point of view and it may not be your primary character. You know you know why she's almost the protagonist of the same she is the one that is turned up you know I mean he's kind of the antagonist at least momentarily but it doesn't maybe that that an ass kind of doesn't matter but they made a good choice to make that same stronger. All right, well, that was a good chop.

Chas Fisher

It was can I just potentially derail it and just ask you who do you do you think that there are scenes in narrative storytelling that don't have any that don't raise a character question at all or any question plot character thing just don't have a question.

Stu Willis

In narrative cinema. Yeah. I mean other than like title saying sequences no I you could probably have moments of pure kind of like a static in a broad sense like pleasure but I'm struggling. Do think of something that is not nested in the same way that we've talked talked about right you might have a moment with great bit of music or great bit of song that's kind of like visually spectacular, I'm thinking of like the barn raising scene in Witness but that is actually them, will they build the barn and it's actually full of character right.

Chas Fisher

Yeah but I guess that's a that is focusing on audience experience right to that point potentially experiential as a separate thing, you know like I think in certain martial art films obviously there's the plot question of who's going to defeat who but at a certain point they can just become like revelling in the, Choreography and potentially the brutality of what you're seeing or doing I think there's there's something in there where it's not actually questions and more about emotion or feeling.

Stu Willis

Yeah I mean you might get beats of that like with horror where there's like the discovery of the dead body you know or the actual after the body has died like the revealing in the gore and I'm sure there's probably moments within other kinds of films like sex scenes maybe.

Chas Fisher

Yeah.

Stu Willis

Yeah, I mean... I doubt most sex scenes are going to have the question of like will they come it's not an active plot question maybe it reveals a bit of character but mostly it's us enjoying the answer of will when will they get together and we sit within the answer right I don't think as much as the scene between Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor does actually move the plot forward.

Chas Fisher

Quite rich and backward. So you'd like just to you when I'd asked this question in the pre chat you you were talking about the medal scene at the end of a new hope and that's because there are no questions posed anymore and we are just. Enjoying their success we are like just purely in the moment with them but I contrast that within the mood for love when. He's walked away from the temple and we're just hanging in the temple that to me is very thematic it's not experiential.

Stu Willis

No I did but it's not character thing maybe it is character thing but it feels more just purely theme so yeah there's some stuff in there that that cut you know because I think quote unquote or Emma just complained about how you said quote unquote so. How like I think dramatic cinema doesn't you don't have to stay in drama you can drop out of being in drama you can be imagistic or poetic or experiential, at certain moments and I think that's what you kind of talking about but they usually used it kind of often you know in the case of in the mood for love it's the end of the film.

Chas Fisher

The questions have largely resolved other than the key one of why am I why have I been watching this. So yeah, I look- the only reason why I raised that is because I think sometimes we get a bit too hung up on these tools and, you know, think that they're exhaustive and complete and the only lens through which you can see something and I just- Yeah, I mean, coming back to our rewrite, I- there's moments where I want to be like to like a cinematic pass where I'm like literally going through and going, is there a way we can do these moments without dialogue at all?

Stu Willis

Into imagery and if we're pushing into imagery how do we then write that on the page but that's that's a separate question.

1:33:02 Many thanks to our Patreons

Chas Fisher

Thanks to all our patrons who bring you more Draft Zero more often and in particular the superest patrons who Lord knows why they want this much Draft Zero this often but- Is that a plot character question or plot character theme question?

Stu Willis

I think it's character theme. I think it's a character theme question.

Chas Fisher

Thanks special thanks to Alexandra, Casimir, Eduardo, Jen, Thomas, Garrett, Randy, Jesse, Sandra, Thijs, Alex, and Krob.

Stu Willis

We love you all.

Chas Fisher

Yes all of you all of you like that top patrons dollar patrons all in between thank you for you do motivate us as much as we're still infrequent we would be more infrequent without your support.

Stu Willis

Right well I actually thought that went pretty well I don't think it was too luxury.

From the film

I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself. About anything on this episode or anything in general. And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website. At draft-zero.com. At the website you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes. As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker. Thanks. And thanks for listening. And now for Backmatter.

↑

0:00 Cold Open #

1:56 Intro: Scene Questions #

16:30 Loki #

23:24 The Last Crusade #

33:03 The Bourne Supremacy #

45:50 Queen and Slim #

1:03:03 Do The Right Thing #

1:15:03 Key Learnings & Wrap Up #

1:33:02 Many thanks to our Patreons #

0:00 Cold Open

1:56 Intro: Scene Questions

16:30 Loki

23:24 The Last Crusade

33:03 The Bourne Supremacy

45:50 Queen and Slim

1:03:03 Do The Right Thing

1:15:03 Key Learnings & Wrap Up

1:33:02 Many thanks to our Patreons