DZ-59

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Julio Olivera: You should open with that, too. Would have been done in, like, ten minutes.

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Stu Willis: Hi, I’m Stu Willis.

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Chas Fisher: And I’m Chas Fisher.

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Julio Olivera: And I am Julio Olivera.

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Stu Willis: And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where three emerging filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work, or, in this case, movies. Or a movie.

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Chas Fisher: Today on the podcast, we are trialing a slightly different format Stu has dubbed the “Short Shot”.

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Chas Fisher: So given how close both those words sound to shit, I wonder how long this name is going to last.

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Chas Fisher: But we are talking about the character journeys of Steve Rogers, Captain America and Tony Stark, Iron Man, in the box office behemoth, AVENGERS: ENDGAME.

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Chas Fisher: And this topic came about because I wrote a review on Letterboxd saying how disappointed I was in the lack of dramatization of any kind of character journey for

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Chas Fisher: Tony and Steve and

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Chas Fisher: Stu and Julio both vociferously disagreed with my views, and it turned into what felt very much like a Draft Zero episode there in the comments, and we decided to record it instead.

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Julio Olivera: So we can just pull up Letterboxd right now and read over it and then we’ll be done.

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Stu Willis: Yeah, we’re just going to act out the comments. That’s it.

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Chas Fisher: Okay, so my broad thesis with which Stu and Julio may or may not

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Chas Fisher: disagree with, is I felt that there was a distinct lack of

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Chas Fisher: journey for Steve and Tony in ENDGAME, and I felt that from my point of view, that’s because they made a series of decisions without ever,

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Chas Fisher: my perspective being presented with a dramatic choice to do this or this; they’re always presented with:

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Chas Fisher: And now you should do this, and now you should do this, and now you should do this.

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Chas Fisher: But before we get too critical on this, I just want a disclaimer for any fans out there: Julio gave this movie five stars.

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Chas Fisher: I did not give it five stars, but I think we all admired how hard it was to pull off what they pulled off.

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Chas Fisher: And we’re certainly not haters in this podcast.

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Stu Willis: I’m going to be more specific, because I am looking over your Letterboxd review, Chas, and I’m going to hold you to it like you’re a politician,

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Stu Willis: which is that you said, “My main issue is that they didn’t deepen my understanding or really challenge the characters of Tony or Cap.

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Stu Willis: The film became about loss and battling grief.

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Stu Willis: And while that battle is fought by all of them as a group, I didn’t get much of their individual flavours of loss. In fact, I’d venture that the only characters that have any sense of developed journey are Thor, Natasha and Clint”, whom we are not going to discuss.

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Stu Willis: As if anyone pays any attention to Black Widow anyway. Certainly not the MCU. Yes. Directed by an Australian. “This is in stark contrast to what we’ve been achieved in the first AVENGERS film.” Okay, this is the important bit: “Don’t get me wrong.

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Chas Fisher: Oooooh.

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Julio Olivera: Getting a prequel.

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Stu Willis: They nailed the end to Cap and Tony’s journeys. Nailed it.

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Stu Willis: But those two final scenes could have been tacked onto the end of almost any AVENGERS movie.

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Stu Willis: I wanted more from what preceded that ending.”

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Stu Willis: In other words, you felt that where they ended up at the end of the film could have been at the beginning of the film, or a the end of INFINITY WAR. Yeah.

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Chas Fisher: I felt that they could. It was almost irrelevant to the plot of the film that we’d seen in ENDGAME.

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Chas Fisher: It was “Tony Stark sacrifices himself and Cap chooses to go live a life for himself, to stop serving.”

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Stu Willis: Well, let’s be clear: Tony tried to sacrifice himself of the end of AVENGERS, but he still had a contract for a sequel.

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Stu Willis: So on one level, that’s correct.

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Stu Willis: But if we’re talking about the end to character journeys, at what point are we expecting them to be related to plot anyway?

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Chas Fisher: Yeah, true enough. Okay, so can I highlight…

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Stu Willis: What is our demand there?

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Chas Fisher: I guess what my issues are, and you guys can just tell me why I’m completely wrong?

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Chas Fisher: So for Tony, let’s put that in the context of what did the snap do for Cap and Tony’s characters?

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Chas Fisher: So we come back after the five years and their failure to defeat Thanos, and I was really fascinated with how they set up how the snap had affected Tony and Steve.

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Chas Fisher: So Tony’s happily with Pepper,

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Chas Fisher: He’s got a daughter, Morgana or Morgan.

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Excerpts: Come on. That’s your favourite story.

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Excerpts: I love you tons.

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Excerpts: Three thousand? That’s crazy.

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Excerpts: Go to bed or I’ll sell all your toys.

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Chas Fisher: So he has something to lose. Steve, I think, is really fascinatingly set up where he’s no longer an Avenger, like Black Widow is running what’s left of the Avengers out of the Avengers

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Chas Fisher: H Q. It feels like Steve is even living in Avengers H.Q.

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Excerpts: You here to do your laundry?

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Excerpts: No. I saw a pod of whales when I was coming over the bridge. In the Hudson? Fewer ships, cleaner water. You know, if you’re about to tell me to look on the bright side,

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Excerpts: I’m about to hit you in the head with a peanut butter sandwich.

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Chas Fisher: He’s helping people cope with grief by not being a superhero, just by being Steve Rogers. He’s given up serving, and he keeps having these lines like:

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Excerpts: You know, I keep telling everybody they should move on, and grow. Some do. But not us.

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Excerpts: If I move on, who does this? Maybe it doesn’t need to be done.

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Stu Willis: I think you’re kind of skipping over an important structural element in the film, which is that there’s a time jump in the opening anything. It’s not just the opening act, it’s kind of like, more or less the opening sequence.

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Stu Willis: Because the film opens with the immediate aftermath of the snap.

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Stu Willis: It’s almost like the epilogue to INFINITY WAR.

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Stu Willis: We have the rescuing of Iron Man, where they talk about how Thanos has achieved exactly what he set out to achieve.

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Excerpts: I said we’d lose. You said, “We’ll do that together too.” Guess what, Cap. We lost. You weren’t there.

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Stu Willis: And we have the discussion regarding Thanos and going to

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Stu Willis: Kill Thanos, and they learn something that, in the context of the other films, actually pretty clever set up in hindsight, is that they demonstrate to the audience and to themselves that Thanos can be killed.

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Stu Willis: But what they show is that what he has done cannot be undone.

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Stu Willis: If you’ve seen his film, then I’m just telling you what you’ve already seen. And if you haven’t seen this film, then this is probably just confusing as all hell.

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Stu Willis: But it’s important to run through these beats because what happens after that is we jump five years later and we see how they’ve dealt with the reality.

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Stu Willis: Their new reality of a post snap universe. We’ve actually allowed them to process the trauma and see how the world has changed over those five years. And those contrasts are really important in all those characters.

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Stu Willis: What is interesting and what is curious or interesting, and we’ll see if it comes through in our discussion, is if we agree that all these beats are there, but they land differently for us.

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Stu Willis: That’s kind of an interesting thing to discuss and kind of unpack.

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Chas Fisher: So they’ve got the end of the first act is, we’ve got the possibility of inventing time travel, and

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Chas Fisher: Importantly, Tony figures out how to do it.

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Chas Fisher: He gets Pepper’s permission to go and do time travel and when he and Steve meet out in front of avengers H.Q.

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Chas Fisher: They do a little deal with each other.

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Excerpts: We got a shot at getting these stones. But I’ve got to tell you my priorities. Bring back what we lost, I hope. Yes. Keep what I found: have to, at all costs. And maybe not die trying would be nice.

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Chas Fisher: And to me, as soon as that deal happened, I thought to myself, and maybe it’s because they had this line in there,

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Chas Fisher: Maybe it’s my disappointment or my issues or my lack of feeling at this journey here, is because that line made me think, “Oh, this is the dramatic conflict that is going to emerge later in this film.”

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Chas Fisher: At some point, they’re going to force Tony to choose between bringing everyone back and his daughter, or they’re going to make Cap have to go back on his word.

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Stu Willis: That’s on you, Chas, to do with your expectations. Probably you were leading with your writer’s brain.

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Stu Willis: One could also argue that, given that it was about a life that he wanted to live with his daughter, him choosing to sacrifice himself to save everyone is him making a choice that he wouldn’t have made it the beginning of the film.

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Stu Willis: And in fact, the first act was him choosing to do nothing about what had happened.

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Excerpts: You’ve got a lot on the line. Got a wife, a daughter. But I lost someone. Very important to me. A lot of people did. And now now we have a chance to bring her back. To bring everyone back. And you’re telling me that you won’t even try?

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Stu Willis: Right. But the other observation I will make is that arguably, particularly for Tony Stark, this is more of a hero’s journey structure.

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Stu Willis: He literally has a refusal of the call, right?

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Stu Willis: He refuses the call to go out to the adventure, which is given to him by his, in this case, mentor Captain America. And then he goes on the adventure. But the adventure doesn’t necessarily mean that he changes internally.

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Stu Willis: As we’ve talked about many, many times, those kind of heroes journeys are, often external plot changing.

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Stu Willis: And as we’ll probably talk about the same thing is with Captain America. The characters are always who they are.

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Stu Willis: It’s the kind of the arc of awesome stuff which we’ve never directly explained in detail.

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Stu Willis: But it’s the universe recognizing how awesome these characters are rather than the character themselves changing. And that’s largely being Tony’s thing.

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Stu Willis: I think, Tony, you can argue, stopped changing at the end of the first act of…

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Stu Willis: Or put another way, his biggest change was at the end of the first act of IRON MAN one, right?

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Stu Willis: And then AVENGERS was the biggest challenge about whether he was prepared to sacrifice himself,

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Stu Willis: And then it’s just that kind of character loop again and again and again until he breaks the loop, which is ultimately that he makes a decision to sacrifice himself, and he actually dies as opposed to lives.

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Chas Fisher: Yeah, but if that’s your broad point, that is almost entirely why I’m disappointed or why I felt an absence of the film, because,

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Chas Fisher: from that point on, when he makes that deal, he’s at that point.

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Chas Fisher: ”I’m going on the adventure. I’m accepting the call to the Adventure.” He then does not ever get confronted with that choice again.

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Chas Fisher: And so that’s it for the rest of the movie, and going by,

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Chas Fisher: We may revisit this with Steve being able to pick up Thor’s Hammer and some people saying Steve was always worthy.

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Chas Fisher: If you buy that argument, which is the fucking Russo’s argument, see show notes…

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Julio Olivera: They’re not in the movie. Well, I guess one of them is in the movie, but he’s not in the movie making that point, so that’s the equivalent of a DVD extra that you never watch.

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Chas Fisher: Well, I think we’ll come back to that moment later.

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Chas Fisher: But my point is, then they are not presented with the choice to either get off the adventure again,or to accept the consequences of their adventure.

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Chas Fisher: From that point on, their journey stops when they go, “Yup, we’re going on this adventure together.”

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Stu Willis: And how is that different from any other action movie?

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Chas Fisher: I feel like in CIVIL WAR they have a lot of choices in the third act that both go directly deepening my understanding of their character and create dramatic conflicts.

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Chas Fisher: I would say that in the same way of WINTER SOLDIER.

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Chas Fisher: You know the way that Steve essentially stops being a soldier at the end of that movie and becoming, ah, a force unto himself.

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Chas Fisher: It’s kind of like it’s all that argument about, “How do you tell a good Superman story” is you make these characters choose between two terrible choices, and…

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Chas Fisher: There was a complete absence of that for me in AVENGERS ENDGAME, which was present in INFINITY WAR, which was present in, for me, at least, in CIVIL WAR and in WINTER SOLDIER.

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Julio Olivera: Well, I think that, just listening in awe as both of you were presenting your arguments as if I was just listening to an episode of Draft Zero, and I completely forgot that I was part of it.

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Julio Olivera: I think that one of the reasons why the movie works for me more than it does for you, Chas.

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Julio Olivera: and it may work differently for me than it works for Stu, even,

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Julio Olivera: It’s just that, you know, when I when I get to the end, when I see, like, Tony’s journey in here, I feel it. And I felt this.

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Julio Olivera: I’ve seen it three times now, ENDGAME. And every time I’ve felt that, even more that it’s not so much about, “okay,

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Julio Olivera: well, his ark is that he used to be selfish, and now he’s not, and, you know, he makes the ultimate sacrifice.”

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Julio Olivera: I mean, that’s part of it, too. But to me, it’s like, the key moment is when he looks up at Doctor Strange and Doctor Strange gives him like the little signal saying “yes, this is the one.”

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Background Music

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Julio Olivera: You know, “This is the one reality where we win”, and Tony has to make the decision of like, “Okay, well, then that means they have to kill myself.”

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Julio Olivera: Or does that mean that something else is going on? You know, I mean, there’s that close up in slo mo where you just kind of have to make a decision and, at least to me, every time it’s felt, and especially on rewatch, it felt that that’s him deciding.

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Julio Olivera: Okay, well, I guess that’s it for me.

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Julio Olivera: And hopefully things work out. And the idea for him to make that leap, to suddenly decide, like Iron man, Tony stark, the control freak that’s been

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Julio Olivera: obsessed with being the protector of the Earth, who wanted to build a shield around the planet and all this stuff to suddenly,

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Julio Olivera: get to the point where he’s just ready to say, “All right, well, this is it”,

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Julio Olivera: like in a very conscious way.

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Julio Olivera: I mean, yes, at the end of the first AVENGERS, you know, he’s flying the nuke out to through the portal or whatever was happening. But that’s, you know, that was more of a spur of the moment decision, where as like here,

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Julio Olivera: I think that he’s surrounded by superheroes.

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Julio Olivera: I can see him trying to decide if this is really the only way that it can happen in this because, you know, they’ve set up that he has a family and everything.

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Julio Olivera: So to me, that makes a difference, the entire movie has this theme of talking about moving on and letting go and all this stuff and in a way, it’s just Iron Man just deciding that, “Alright, well, this is the time when I’m just calling it quits, I’m going out with a bang.”

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Stu Willis: The world doesn’t need Iron Man anymore, where as he once believed they did.

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Excerpts: Tony, look at me.

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Excerpts: We’re going to be okay. You can rest now.

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Julio Olivera: And that completely underscores. It, you know, is like it’s not just that “Oh, well, this happened in INFINITY WAR and ENDGAME,”

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Julio Olivera: The fact that they do this as the finale to, like, twenty movies, twenty one movies, through which we’ve seen this entire universe of super beings develop… that has something to do with it.

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Julio Olivera: You know, the fact that maybe Iron Man would have died a different person ten movies ago, before we had all these other superheroes, all these other beings that can protect the Earth. But now he is ready to go.

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Julio Olivera: You know, he I think that that factors in his decision, I think that that’s something that gives them a way. That’s what makes it different than if he was dying at the end of AVENGERS or AGE OF ULTRON.

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Julio Olivera: He’s a different person, and I don’t think that he could have made that decision maybe earlier in the movie, when he was still dealing with all the unresolved issues from INFINITY WAR.

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Julio Olivera: I think that angle maybe has something to do with it.

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Julio Olivera: You’re looking at it as, “well, this is an Iron Man movie and I’m looking at it as though this is the twentieth, twenty first movie in a long series of MCU developments.

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Julio Olivera: So I guess that’s why it wasn’t underwhelming to me. It was like, oh, of course.

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Julio Olivera: You know, it’s time for Iron Man to retire and he’s making that decision in a way that he doesn’t do at the beginning of the ENDGAME. You know that it’s more like Thanos makes a decision for him.

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Chas Fisher: Yeah, I think you’ve made a very good counter argument that that moment between him and Doctor Strange is him making a decision.

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Chas Fisher: But I think you and I feel that having watched it three times, and I certainly didn’t feel it the first time I watched it because he’s going like, do I act or do I not act?

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Chas Fisher: And in the context of these films and what I know of this character, that’s not a choice.

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Chas Fisher: Like he’s not like looking at Doctor Strange saying, “You know, what is it time to go to Starbucks and have a coffee?”

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Chas Fisher: So it’s like, “Do I act or do I not act because we don’t know what the decision is? And so you know that the wonderful thing in the end of AVENGERS is him,

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Chas Fisher: when he’s flying that nuke up, he calls Pepper.

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Excerpts: Stark. You know, that’s a one way trip. Save the rest for the turn, J. Shall I try Miss Potts? Might as well.

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Chas Fisher: And, you know, he also calls Pepper in INFINITY WAR when he’s on the spaceship going into space, he leaves a voice recording for Pepper when he thinks he’s dying in the spaceship.

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Chas Fisher: There was dramatization off him acknowledging what he was sacrificing,

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Chas Fisher: whereas maybe interestingly, it’s me being a parent coming to this like,

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Chas Fisher: it would have punched me in the feels if he called Morgan to say goodbye and he couldn’t, there, in the middle of this huge fucking climactic battle.

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Julio Olivera: But he left her a voicemail. I mean, that’s really that’s almost what you’re asking for.

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Excerpts: So I thought I’d better record a little greeting in the case of an untimely death on my part, you know, not that death at any time isn’t untimely. This time travel thing that they’re going to try and pull off tomorrow, it’s got me scratching my head about the survivability of this whole thing.

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Excerpts: But again, that’s the hero gig. Part of the journey is the end. What am I even tripping for? Everything’s gonna work out exactly the way it’s supposed to.

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Excerpts: I love you three thousand.

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Chas Fisher: Yes, and it goes back to what we’re talking about. He had made, by leaving that voicemail, he had made the decision to die. And we may come back to this in terms of how they dramatized the end of Cap’s journey. He had made that decision offscreen.

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Chas Fisher: Well, I wasn’t — well, we were with him. You just described the moment, it’s with him and Doctor Strange. But I didn’t understand at that moment, watching him, that he was deciding to sacrifice raising his daughter.

00:20:49.588 –> 00:20:59.898
Stu Willis: Okay. I mean, this is I think part of what you mean by disappointment, is disappointment relative to your own expectations, Chas.

00:20:59.874 –> 00:21:01.044
Chas Fisher: Yes, absolutely.

00:21:00.988 –> 00:21:08.698
Stu Willis: Because if you listen to Julio and I, we’re coming from a different set of context and when does not argue, went through it in craft terms,

00:21:10.278 –> 00:21:14.498
Stu Willis: except maybe the between Julio and me is that I can kind of speak Draft Zero a little bit.

00:21:15.871 –> 00:21:19.981
Julio Olivera: Yes. I mean, I don’t need to talk about wounds and,

00:21:20.571 –> 00:21:31.621
Julio Olivera: loops and whatever, like I’ll follow it when you guys were saying it, but it would take me a moment to, like, really translate all and put it back out there in Draft Zero language.

00:21:31.858 –> 00:21:38.328
Stu Willis: Human. Okay, so I think the first observation to make and actually they’re kind of interrelated,

00:21:38.648 –> 00:21:50.598
Stu Willis: So as Julio says, this is the end of a long sequence of films, right, three IRON MANs, four AVENGERS, and one CAPTAIN AMERICA film that Iron Man has been in.

00:21:50.628 –> 00:21:52.708
Stu Willis: So he’s been in what, eight or nine films, right?

00:21:52.838 –> 00:22:05.048
Stu Willis: And as we’ve talked about in our sequence episodes, generally what happens in films that are action driven is the character questions are resolved at the end of the— at the beginning of the third act. And then it’s just the plot questions that are resolved.

00:22:05.148 –> 00:22:09.568
Stu Willis: And in this case, the difficulty of doing a film in this kind of structure is that that—

00:22:09.678 –> 00:22:14.898
Stu Willis: But we get the same thing. I mean, this is like a Walter White structure. The character has stopped.

00:22:15.108 –> 00:22:19.278
Stu Willis: The last true character decision that they make is the beginning of the first act.

00:22:19.288 –> 00:22:25.288
Stu Willis: And then it’s just resolving the plot questions. I think when he is turning up at the Avengers, that speech about “I don’t want to die,”

00:22:25.288 –> 00:22:32.638
Stu Willis: Is him actually realizing the stakes on this mission that this is him getting shipped out to war, right?

00:22:32.638 –> 00:22:37.638
Stu Willis: And that’s in contrast to INFINITY WAR. It was an accident that he ended up getting caught up with Thanos.

00:22:37.638 –> 00:22:48.318
Stu Willis: This is him making a very active choice to do something which is very dangerous and all he is joking, joking around early on is actually masking the fact that he knows,

00:22:48.488 –> 00:22:52.758
Stu Willis: that is potentially a one way kamikaze mission for someone.

00:22:51.932 –> 00:23:03.002
Chas Fisher: Yeah, and I agree with you on that. And how— again, I don’t want to, like, criticize Markus and McFeely because I think they and the Russo brothers have done just something absolutely astonishing.

00:23:03.132 –> 00:23:15.242
Chas Fisher: But even if he’d had, like, just a little humorous goodbye with Morgan and that later in the movie, we get a call back to that and realize that then he knew right that that was his goodbye to her.

00:23:15.393 –> 00:23:24.653
Stu Willis: That they’ve chosen to play it as a reveal because it’s for the audience rather than us in a moment with the character for the character they’ve. They’ve pushed that moment.

00:23:24.332 –> 00:23:27.332
Chas Fisher: Yes, and they’ve done the exact same thing with Steve.

00:23:27.393 –> 00:23:34.523
Stu Willis: Yeah, you know, they’re making their choices to pull the heartstrings of the audience, rather from us to be inside of the moment with the character.

00:23:34.673 –> 00:23:37.323
Stu Willis: But we know contextually.

00:23:37.643 –> 00:23:45.893
Stu Willis: There’s no way this film’s first act turning points going to be Iron Man going, “I’m out.” Alright, we know that’s not a possibility.

00:23:45.903 –> 00:23:52.043
Stu Willis: So that tinges everything. It does, right? It’s like after watching Solo, Seeing all the stuff with Han and Chewbacca is just so sad.

00:23:52.143 –> 00:23:58.653
Stu Willis: It’s like him and spending time with Morgan in the bed and him saying goodnight to her, that is full of pathos.

00:23:58.663 –> 00:24:02.633
Stu Willis: And I imagine on the rewatch, I’ve only seen it once because I don’t pay the Disney tithe,

00:24:02.713 –> 00:24:09.223
Stu Willis: unlike you guys, him saying goodbye to her is tinged with like an emotional pathos.

00:24:09.403 –> 00:24:20.933
Stu Willis: That is about the audience perspective, and I think, but maybe it’s because you, in that moment don’t feel that he’s aware that this is the last time he’s saying to her but having not having been sent off to war,

00:24:21.223 –> 00:24:30.003
Stu Willis: I can imagine that there being plenty of moments for people like that, you are in the armed services that are going on those kinds of missions that are like,

00:24:30.693 –> 00:24:34.403
Stu Willis: this could be the last time and that’s kind of every time, you know.

00:24:34.339 –> 00:24:40.269
Julio Olivera: Yes, I think you know, you have that scene just trying to put myself in the shoes of the writers.

00:24:40.379 –> 00:24:44.359
Julio Olivera: And I think that you have to kind of pick which scene you go with.

00:24:44.369 –> 00:24:49.449
Julio Olivera: Do you go with the scene where they have that interaction before he knows he’s going?

00:24:49.459 –> 00:25:00.529
Julio Olivera: Or maybe he’s had an inkling, right? I think it’s after his figure out time travel and his kind of right here. He puts her to bed and, you know, they have the whole I love you three thousand moment.

00:24:54.393 –> 00:24:56.083
Stu Willis: He says goodbye to her.

00:25:00.539 –> 00:25:14.039
Julio Olivera: I’m just flying by the seat of my pants here. Just assuming that I’m writing AVENGERS, you know, I feel like I only have room for one big moment with the girl and it’s like—

00:25:14.049 –> 00:25:23.369
Julio Olivera: And so then I have to decide. Do I do the pre-decision moment where he is, as you just said, you know, he’s unaware, really, that he’s maybe he’s not thinking,

00:25:23.369 –> 00:25:36.689
Julio Olivera: ”Okay, I’m getting shipped out the war” yet, and therefore later on, when we think back, it’s gonna have, like, that extra poignancy of “Oh yeah, the last time that they interacted, that we saw them interact, was when he didn’t know, or do I not have that scene,

00:25:36.749 –> 00:25:43.719
Julio Olivera: And instead I have a scene where he’s saying goodbye to her because he knows what he’s getting into and, you know, that comes back later.

00:25:43.729 –> 00:25:48.759
Julio Olivera: As you know, well, we he didn’t know that he was saying about her for the last time, but he kind of had an idea.

00:25:48.799 –> 00:25:53.229
Julio Olivera: I don’t think that you can have both. I could be wrong. I don’t know what you guys think, but I think that

00:25:53.359 –> 00:25:59.549
Julio Olivera: they had to pick one and they went with the one that is not so on the nose, I guess.

00:25:59.559 –> 00:26:06.299
Julio Olivera: You know, I guess it doesn’t give you what you wanted, Chas, which was, I guess, that moment where he makes a decision.

00:26:06.439 –> 00:26:16.029
Julio Olivera: And like you said, they’ll probably be echoed when we talk about Captain America. But I think it still gives you a structure that works in a different way.

00:26:16.109 –> 00:26:22.049
Julio Olivera: Maybe not so much surprise, because I think that most of us went in expecting Tony to not make it.

00:26:22.339 –> 00:26:27.679
Julio Olivera: But I think I think that it definitely it’s a different interaction.

00:26:27.679 –> 00:26:40.604
Julio Olivera: I think if I had to pick between them, I do the the casual interaction that’s, you know, kind of melancholy, but not as ominous as, you know, what would happen if he’s already decided that he’s going and he’s just going to say goodbye to her.

00:26:41.744 –> 00:26:52.914
Julio Olivera: I mean, I’m sure they can both be great, be written greatly, perfectly. But the one that we got, it doesn’t leave me wishing that they done the different one.

00:26:53.004 –> 00:26:56.654
Julio Olivera: Do you think that they could have done both, that they could have played both moments?

00:26:56.802 –> 00:27:07.912
Chas Fisher: So no, I agree with you, and I think what Stu has somehow managed to say— I won’t say somehow, that’s unkind— what Stu has very precisely put his finger on and you as well, Julio, what has bothered me

00:27:09.502 –> 00:27:13.762
Chas Fisher: Is that both of these key decisions made by these characters,

00:27:13.772 –> 00:27:17.522
Chas Fisher: I felt they were undramatised because both times they’re largely happening

00:27:18.202 –> 00:27:24.012
Chas Fisher: off screen, and they’re revealing to the audience later what those decisions mean, rather than,

00:27:24.402 –> 00:27:36.912
Chas Fisher: us being fully aware of their making the choice at the time, and that clearly it might be a personal preference on my part that I want to be with the character as they’re experiencing that rather than be told after the fact,

00:27:37.402 –> 00:27:39.812
Chas Fisher: what they were going through, and I do—

00:27:39.822 –> 00:27:46.812
Chas Fisher: There was one moment, on my third rewatch, where I felt that they could have had both and

00:27:47.242 –> 00:27:55.582
Chas Fisher: that moment is Scott and Steve and Tony are regrouping in two thousand twelve.

00:27:55.592 –> 00:27:59.012
Chas Fisher: They’ve just tried to get the Tesseract back and they’ve lost it.

00:27:59.232 –> 00:28:06.092
Excerpts: You said that we had one shot. Yes, this was our shot. We shot it. It’s shot. Six stones or nothing. Six stones or nothing. You’re repeating yourself, you know that?

00:28:06.262 –> 00:28:14.082
Excerpts: You’re repeating yourself. You’re repeating yourself. You’re repeating yourself. You know, you never wanted a time heist. You want on board the time heist. You ruin the time heist. I dropped the ball, ruined the time heist. Is that what I did?

00:28:14.182 –> 00:28:22.442
Excerpts: Yeah. Are there any other options? There’s no other options. There’s no do over, there’s no going anywhere else. We have one particle left, each.

00:28:22.902 –> 00:28:29.442
Excerpts: That’s it. All right, we use that? Bye bye. You’re not going home. Yeah, well, if we don’t try no one else is going home either.

00:28:30.710 –> 00:28:34.460
Chas Fisher: They’re fucked. They don’t have Pym particles. It was one shot or nothing.

00:28:34.750 –> 00:28:44.370
Chas Fisher: It’s a really great scene and then Tony says I know where they’re are more Pym particles and where the Tesseract is at the same time.

00:28:45.262 –> 00:28:48.332
Excerpts: Sure? Cap. Captain. Steve.

00:28:49.032 –> 00:28:55.142
Excerpts: Sorry, America. Rogers. Look, if you do this and it doesn’t work, you don’t come back.

00:28:56.732 –> 00:29:00.002
Excerpts: Thanks for the pep talk, Pissant. You trust me?

00:29:03.160 –> 00:29:10.550
Chas Fisher: And look, the movie’s three fucking hours long and I had to do a lot of research or when to take my pee breaks in the first,

00:29:11.280 –> 00:29:13.670
Chas Fisher: my first view, But,

00:29:13.660 –> 00:29:19.400
Stu Willis: But surely Draft Zero has given you a lot of practice. It has for me. This is a boring a bit. I’ll have a pee.

00:29:20.260 –> 00:29:22.250
Chas Fisher: Chas is talking, Stu disappears.

00:29:23.731 –> 00:29:32.141
Julio Olivera: Chas. I just, I think just completely validated your entire argument. If you just admitted that you walked out in the middle of the movie to go pee.

00:29:32.731 –> 00:29:39.141
Julio Olivera: I’m sorry. Those of us who really care about the craft, we sit there for three hours. We don’t go to the bathroom.

00:29:39.420 –> 00:29:41.370
Chas Fisher: I have the bladder of an old man.

00:29:41.340 –> 00:29:47.100
Stu Willis: You actually have to develop those muscles a little bit. You have to get something that teaches, uh, tantra.

00:29:48.360 –> 00:29:55.860
Chas Fisher: All right, my my bladder control to one side, in that moment when they both decide to go back to nineteen seventies,

00:29:56.030 –> 00:30:05.160
Chas Fisher: at that point, it’s Cap and Tony, Cap could have just said, “I made a deal, that you would stay safe. I’m going by myself,” and Tony says, “Fuck you, Rogers. I’m going.”

00:30:05.360 –> 00:30:18.380
Chas Fisher: This is what I mean about dramatizing choice. They were making that decision, but it was never dramatized that, at that point, Tony was genuinely for the kind of, first time in the film, risking not coming back to Morgan,

00:30:18.580 –> 00:30:21.670
Chas Fisher: because he didn’t necessarily have a way back.

00:30:21.860 –> 00:30:30.490
Chas Fisher: He hoped he would. He was trying to, but he didn’t know, and Steve had made a promise that Tony can’t lose what he’d gained.

00:30:30.700 –> 00:30:34.850
Chas Fisher: And in that moment, neither of them make a choice. They just go. “Okay, go.”

00:30:35.472 –> 00:30:46.882
Julio Olivera: Oh, no, I think. I think, actually, Steve makes a choice. Even like Iron Man asks him. Like Tony says, Do you trust me? Until then, Steve hesitates for a moment and he’s like, “Okay, let’s go.”

00:30:46.840 –> 00:30:50.980
Chas Fisher: Yeah, but what’s at stake for Steven in not going?

00:30:50.990 –> 00:30:55.440
Chas Fisher: There’s so much more at stake in that moment for Tony going, then for Steve.

00:30:56.290 –> 00:31:03.910
Stu Willis: The problem is something like this in terms of all your character motivations is as far as stakes of the world go, next to the entire universe

00:31:03.920 –> 00:31:14.250
Stu Willis: ending, the stakes were pretty much as high as they can possibly go in the context of this film, of the context of this universe, right? So it’s going to motivate all their choices. In comparison,

00:31:14.490 –> 00:31:20.300
Stu Willis: their individual issues pale. You know that they can’t help.

00:31:16.940 –> 00:31:18.650
Chas Fisher: They do, but that’s what’s interesting.

00:31:20.310 –> 00:31:23.220
Stu Willis: But well, I mean, that’s the whole first act of Tony.

00:31:23.250 –> 00:31:30.550
Stu Willis: I guess part of this is it’s like, you say, the I don’t feel these choices are dramatized, but it seems like, particularly when it comes to Tony,

00:31:30.560 –> 00:31:37.860
Stu Willis: it’s one, maybe two key choices that you felt like weren’t dramatized right, which is Tony’s decision—

00:31:37.870 –> 00:31:46.080
Stu Willis: Wasn’t his decision to sacrifice himself it’s that he’s just— he’s made the decision that his speech about “I’m not willing to give up my family for all of this.”

00:31:46.090 –> 00:31:53.800
Stu Willis: By the end of the first act, he’s overturned that and he’s ultimately made the decision that he may go on a one way journey, correct?

00:31:53.700 –> 00:32:02.170
Chas Fisher: Yes, as as the movie plays out when he’s saying I can’t risk losing what I’ve gained, he’s actually, as the film later dramatizes,

00:32:02.280 –> 00:32:11.810
Chas Fisher: He’s already made that choice as he’s saying it. He’s like, I am prepared to risk losing what I’ve gained, according to your guys readings of the film, as you’ve told them to me so far.

00:32:12.088 –> 00:32:17.358
Julio Olivera: Well, no, no, no. I think that that means a different thing when he’s saying I can’t risk losing what I gained,

00:32:17.368 –> 00:32:27.928
Julio Olivera: I think he’s talking about them like his family disappearing whenever like the snap happens, the second snap through whatever it is that they end up doing.

00:32:28.058 –> 00:32:32.688
Julio Olivera: He doesn’t want to change history. It’s different from him dying.

00:32:32.708 –> 00:32:37.108
Julio Olivera: That’s what he attacks it at the end. He’s like, and if I survived and that’s great, you know, ideally not dying.

00:32:37.288 –> 00:32:41.178
Julio Olivera: But yeah, I don’t think he ever goes back on that.

00:32:41.178 –> 00:32:53.298
Julio Olivera: I mean, I don’t think if I think that if, you know, doing the snap on his own meant that his family stopped existing, then you know you’re dealing with a different movie.

00:32:53.398 –> 00:32:57.288
Chas Fisher: Yes, but then Tony hasn’t been changed at all by becoming a father.

00:32:57.508 –> 00:33:05.208
Chas Fisher: Essentially, he’s still like, “Yeah, I don’t give a shit about whether I’m there for Pepper or my daughter, just so long as I saved the universe.”

00:33:05.288 –> 00:33:06.898
Julio Olivera: But that’s the decision he makes, though.

00:33:06.978 –> 00:33:08.578
Stu Willis: That’s exactly what happened.

00:33:09.048 –> 00:33:14.878
Chas Fisher: Exactly. And this is why I’m like this film didn’t deepen who Tony Stark was by becoming a parent.

00:33:14.888 –> 00:33:18.128
Chas Fisher: It didn’t show me. And the same way Steve wasn’t.

00:33:18.138 –> 00:33:32.608
Chas Fisher: He has all these sayings in the first act about maybe we don’t need to be here. Or maybe we just let the universe take care of itself. Maybe we don’t. And then he says all those things, but every single choice he makes along the way is actually to still be the hero and choose it.

00:33:32.598 –> 00:33:37.278
Stu Willis: On that level. I don’t disagree with you, Chas. The point is, it’s a Marvel superhero film.

00:33:37.518 –> 00:33:44.838
Stu Willis: I fully expect these characters to behave exactly like they’re who they are at every possible opportunity, right?

00:33:44.471 –> 00:33:45.571
Julio Olivera: To stay in their loops.

00:33:45.798 –> 00:33:49.598
Stu Willis: They’re going to be just in their loops. That’s exactly who Tony is, right?

00:33:49.608 –> 00:34:00.128
Stu Willis: I was going to make the observation, and then I realized I was wrong, I was like maybe Tony’s journey and this is towards humility, right? In that at the beginning, he is very, like he is angry at Steve Rogers.

00:34:00.287 –> 00:34:14.197
Excerpts: I believe I remember telling Tony alive otherwise that what we needed was a suit of armour around the world. Remember that? Whether it impacted our precious freedoms or not, that’s what we need.

00:34:14.098 –> 00:34:21.528
Stu Willis: And then at the end, there is this idea that maybe that he recognizes, there are all these superheroes, and realizes that the world no longer needs him.

00:34:21.618 –> 00:34:23.408
Stu Willis: But that’s undermined when he says:

00:34:32.287 –> 00:34:32.697
Excerpts: I am Iron Man.

00:34:34.998 –> 00:34:42.008
Stu Willis: He’s still dying. He’s sacrificing himself for the same reason as the beginning of AVENGERS: because he loves being a fucking hero.

00:34:42.274 –> 00:34:50.324
Julio Olivera: I think there’s a difference between the Iron Man of AVENGERS dying versus, you know, who’s kind of flirting with Pepper versus

00:34:50.334 –> 00:34:55.284
Julio Olivera: the Iron Man of ENDGAME dying, who has a family. I mean, actually, when you say that—

00:34:55.038 –> 00:34:57.088
Chas Fisher: If you’re saying that, they haven’t dramatized it.

00:34:57.098 –> 00:35:04.078
Stu Willis: But if he is saying— let’s let Julio explain how he believes they dramatized it, because he can say it’s been dramatized, it just didn’t work for you,

00:35:04.078 –> 00:35:13.588
Stu Willis: Chas, that’s a difference from them not having done it. We’ve pointed out that both ways that you think that haven’t been dramatized were, just not in ways that were were effective for you.

00:35:14.074 –> 00:35:22.084
Julio Olivera: I mean, I think that, whatever, take issues with the idea that that Tony Stark, father, family man,

00:35:22.474 –> 00:35:29.584
Julio Olivera: is basically that it hasn’t changed them just from the moment that you have that scene where he sort of asked for permission.

00:35:31.919 –> 00:35:36.299
Excerpts: Tony, trying to get you to stop has been one of the few failures of my entire life.

00:35:40.789 –> 00:35:47.959
Excerpts: Something tells me maybe I should put it in a lockbox and drop it to the bottom of the lake. Go to bed.

00:35:55.089 –> 00:35:56.799
Excerpts: But would you be able to rest?

00:35:57.804 –> 00:36:01.694
Julio Olivera: I mean, it doesn’t matter matter that he knows that both him and Pepper are kind of going through the motions, although

00:36:01.984 –> 00:36:07.264
Julio Olivera: maybe you guys feel differently. I feel that if Pepper had said no, he wouldn’t have done it. He wouldn’t have gone.

00:36:07.704 –> 00:36:12.624
Julio Olivera: And if I’m reading that scene differently from the two of you, maybe that’s something to look into.

00:36:12.634 –> 00:36:19.314
Julio Olivera: But I actually saw it as, “Oh, wow, look, this is Tony Stark asking for permission.”

00:36:20.344 –> 00:36:26.934
Julio Olivera: That’s that’s something that wouldn’t have happened, you know, two movies ago, three movies ago, however long. It might be that maybe the change

00:36:26.944 –> 00:36:38.114
Julio Olivera: that happened to Iron Man, it’s presented much earlier in the movie. To me you’re asking about “Hey, I want us hear him make the decision. I want to see the moment he makes a decision to just go to the past and risk it all.”

00:36:38.204 –> 00:36:42.984
Julio Olivera: But I never needed it. And I think that it goes back to the fact that we’ve spent so many movies with this guy.

00:36:42.994 –> 00:36:50.154
Julio Olivera: I mean, at this point, unless you’re going to show me something that’s truly new, like that moment with Pepper, where he asks for permission, I don’t really need it.

00:36:50.164 –> 00:37:03.114
Julio Olivera: I needed the scene with Pepper, like if they’d shown him just going on the mission without talking to Pepper, that would have felt weird to me, but showing him making the decision to go back in time because it’s the only way to go, I don’t need to see that,

00:37:03.504 –> 00:37:05.844
Julio Olivera: Would it have made for a good scene, for an interesting scene

00:37:05.844 –> 00:37:19.414
Julio Olivera: to watch? I guess. But in the in the context of a three hour movie, I’m fine with it not being there, especially because obviously having seen the movie three times, I don’t feel like I’ve needed it all three times that the ending worked for me.

00:37:19.223 –> 00:37:29.593
Chas Fisher: Oh, oh. The only reason why I highlight that scene is I didn’t need it on the first two viewings either. And I’m not saying that I needed it in the third. I just saw it as “Oh, my God.

00:37:30.423 –> 00:37:41.533
Chas Fisher: Tony’s just risked everything for him personally,” right? Without that being acknowledged in any way.

00:37:42.404 –> 00:37:47.074
Julio Olivera: Also, we’re completely like skipping like a big thing that I always forget

00:37:47.074 –> 00:37:56.414
Julio Olivera: it’s there until it happens in the movie, which is: it’s not just about his family. I mean the other thing that’s weighing on him is the whole Peter Parker aspect of it.

00:37:56.179 –> 00:37:56.889
Stu Willis: It’s huge.

00:37:57.784 –> 00:38:08.724
Julio Olivera: And that’s, I mean, that’s also something else like that’s Tony Stark risking, you know, he has a connection with him that he doesn’t have with other characters they didn’t have before, and we see that.

00:38:08.724 –> 00:38:15.094
Julio Olivera: I mean, you see the moment where he grabs Peter’s picture and, you know, looks at it and I mean, that’s him

00:38:10.074 –> 00:38:18.126
Background Music

00:38:15.104 –> 00:38:19.324
Julio Olivera: also making a decision, is that before, that’s when he decides to do the time travel, right there.

00:38:19.079 –> 00:38:33.289
Stu Willis: That’s when he starts experimenting, right? So that’s the where he knows that we owes something to those who are lost, which is pretty similar, could play the exact excerpt. But essentially, when Black Widow and Steve rogers and Ant Man turn up.

00:38:33.778 –> 00:38:37.308
Excerpts: I know you’ve got a lot on the line. A wife, a daughter.

00:38:38.378 –> 00:38:48.958
Excerpts: But I lost someone very important to me. A lot of people did. And now now we have a chance to bring her back. To bring everyone back. And you’re telling me that you won’t even—

00:38:50.579 –> 00:38:58.399
Stu Willis: And because his people made it, right, he’s got his family. He’s not prepared to risk that because he’s got it.

00:38:58.409 –> 00:39:11.359
Stu Willis: And then he looks— he’s got that connection with Peter that they’ve dramatized that kind of fatherly affection that he feels like he owes them. Um, and as you know, I’m not the parent here, but parents are willing to sacrifice themselves, I suppose. Apparently.

00:39:11.257 –> 00:39:12.247
Chas Fisher: I’m not sure I would.

00:39:13.779 –> 00:39:27.269
Stu Willis: Peter Parker is kind of a surrogate son, so he is preparing to sacrifice himself to save his surrogate son, and he’s not risking his daughter. I agree with Julio. I got that interpretation of that speech as we’re not

00:39:27.279 –> 00:39:32.849
Stu Willis: altering the timeline, and the film goes a great length to explain how they’re not altering the timeline.

00:39:33.379 –> 00:39:35.959
Stu Willis: You know, they’re altering a stream of the universe or whatever.

00:39:36.197 –> 00:39:43.137
Chas Fisher: I agree with all your arguments.

00:39:43.137 –> 00:39:49.457
Chas Fisher: I guess what I’m Maybe what I’m feeling is boiled down to,

00:39:50.097 –> 00:39:59.227
Chas Fisher: you know, I’ve been so conditioned for the hero’s journey for the hero’s journey, for both these characters to essentially end when they decide to go on

00:39:59.227 –> 00:40:03.577
Chas Fisher: the mission felt very strange to me.

00:40:03.587 –> 00:40:13.907
Chas Fisher: And maybe I’m just like holding on to some kind of narrative convention rather than actually specifics of these people.

00:40:13.907 –> 00:40:26.807
Chas Fisher: But again, I’m talking about Tony’s decision to go back in time. If instead of Tony trying to convince Cap, if it was Cap trying to convince Tony to stay,

00:40:27.797 –> 00:40:33.217
Chas Fisher: that would have been a nice, fascinating little beat that dramatized the decision for me.

00:40:32.838 –> 00:40:58.617
Background Music

00:40:33.227 –> 00:40:42.307
Chas Fisher: And in the same way, when Cap sees Peggy back in nineteen seventy, and then it’s him that goes and hurries up Tony, when he’s talking to his father.

00:40:43.197 –> 00:40:47.497
Chas Fisher: If it was Tony had that be with his father and then goes looking for Steve,

00:40:48.297 –> 00:40:58.507
Chas Fisher: and says Steve to go, then suddenly that is a decision for Steve, like, sorry— it’s a dramatized choice.

00:40:58.991 –> 00:41:03.281
Stu Willis: Okay, so let’s take a moment to clunkily change gears and—

00:41:03.031 –> 00:41:11.481
Julio Olivera: Well, wait, before we leave Iron Man, before we leave Iron Man: I do have a question just because it was brought up. But I’m really curious.

00:41:12.031 –> 00:41:15.921
Julio Olivera: It’s true. I mean, you don’t have kid, Stu. I don’t have kids.

00:41:16.101 –> 00:41:24.841
Julio Olivera: But Chas does. And that could be a valid reaction if you, as a father, felt deeply disappointed by how

00:41:25.531 –> 00:41:31.541
Julio Olivera: Tony Stark handled, you know, his responsibilities to his daughter and to his wife.

00:41:31.551 –> 00:41:33.711
Julio Olivera: So do you see that?

00:41:33.721 –> 00:41:39.841
Julio Olivera: Especially the first time you watch it? I guess, did that bother you? Or really, were you kind of resentful toward him for making that decision?

00:41:40.216 –> 00:41:52.546
Chas Fisher: Yeah, well, resentful is not the right word, but I feel like what he was giving up wasn’t made clear. And from my understanding of your guys’ read is that right from the beginning, Tony was like,

00:41:53.816 –> 00:42:06.526
Chas Fisher: yeah, I’m here to save the universe. And I want to save the universe in a way that Pepper and Morgan stay alive. But I’m cool, you know, if I have to bite it.

00:42:06.840 –> 00:42:17.600
Stu Willis: I thought it was a bit more as, “ideally, I don’t die doing that, but I am happy to— Ideally, I don’t die”— that’s big difference. That’s a double negative.

00:42:19.088 –> 00:42:28.098
Julio Olivera: Well, yeah, and also the way that the movie develops. I mean, when he’s making that statement, he’s going on a time heist. He has no idea of knowing that

00:42:29.288 –> 00:42:34.098
Julio Olivera: you know, that movie ends with Thanos actually attacking Earth the way that he does,

00:42:34.108 –> 00:42:41.798
Julio Olivera: so he has to recontextualize that that idea of like, “Oh, well, I’m going to sacrifice myself,” you know?

00:42:41.798 –> 00:42:48.398
Julio Olivera: It’s when he, I think that the decision that he makes at the end it has more to do, at least in my reading, with like, “Okay,

00:42:49.388 –> 00:42:57.998
Julio Olivera: um, I’m the one that ends this and dies in the process, or do I trust that somebody else could get it?”

00:42:58.788 –> 00:43:12.768
Julio Olivera: I don’t think that that has anything to do with him, like, deciding that it’s his family’s not as important, you know. It’s like my family’s important. I have to protect them. But now, do I, you know, do I step up and make the sacrifice now that I know can fix it?

00:43:12.778 –> 00:43:17.468
Julio Olivera: Or do I let somebody else, you know, use the gauntlet? And stop Thanos or whatever it is?

00:43:17.648 –> 00:43:23.098
Julio Olivera: I think there’s a difference between the fact that Thanos is there destroying the Earth.

00:43:23.488 –> 00:43:26.298
Julio Olivera: If action is not taken, I think that makes a difference too.

00:43:26.724 –> 00:43:30.334
Chas Fisher: Yeah. I mean, the plot overtakes, right?

00:43:31.124 –> 00:43:40.034
Chas Fisher: But everything every time that I’m raising an issue on your guys response is, “Yeah, he did make the decision. He made it at the beginning or the end of the first act.”

00:43:40.788 –> 00:43:47.398
Julio Olivera: Right. But But there’s a decision made right there at the end, in the climax, I mean.

00:43:47.468 –> 00:43:55.378
Stu Willis: He makes the decision to sacrifice himself. He didn’t know at the beginning that that was specifically what he was going to do. His decision in the beginning was to take the risk.

00:43:55.524 –> 00:43:59.824
Chas Fisher: Yeah, I completely agree, and that, again,

00:43:59.834 –> 00:44:11.234
Chas Fisher: when I was seeing that decision, they’ve decided to play it as a reveal of that choice like that—

00:44:08.268 –> 00:44:13.978
Stu Willis: You mean the message to his daughter? Yes, we don’t see him make that recording.

00:44:14.368 –> 00:44:16.968
Stu Willis: No, do you think it would have been as emotionally effective?

00:44:17.024 –> 00:44:26.734
Chas Fisher: I think it would have been fucking emotionally effective if they had done the same, the callback to AVENGERS, where he’s calling Pepper as he’s flying a nuke into space.

00:44:27.624 –> 00:44:29.234
Chas Fisher: But that call was with Morgan.

00:44:29.968 –> 00:44:43.378
Stu Willis: Yeah, cool. I can’t imagine that someone would want to be like, “Hey, I’m dying. I’m going to call my daughter and give her the memory of me on the phone dying to her.” Like there is a version of that that’s really awful.

00:44:44.068 –> 00:44:48.678
Stu Willis: And it’s heart wrenching because it’s awful. He’s not protecting her. He’s being selfish.

00:44:49.124 –> 00:44:54.734
Julio Olivera: So the Tom Hanks movie, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close.

00:44:54.955 –> 00:44:57.265
Chas Fisher: I have no idea what you’re talking about.

00:44:57.524 –> 00:45:00.624
Julio Olivera: It was nominated for an Oscar and everything.

00:45:01.324 –> 00:45:11.334
Julio Olivera: He’s in 9/11. He’s in the Twin Towers when 9/11 happens and he calls home and leaves a voicemail for his kid. As it’s happening.

00:45:11.724 –> 00:45:25.134
Julio Olivera: And I think that what’s happening in the movie, like one of the big things, is that the kids home, but he doesn’t answer the phone, and so he just hears it. It’s pretty brutal when you when you finally figure out that that’s what’s happening.

00:45:25.451 –> 00:45:31.721
Chas Fisher: I’m not saying that, like, my idea is a good idea or even the best idea I’m just talking about…

00:45:31.731 –> 00:45:44.461
Chas Fisher: They made a choice to not dramatize him making his choice in the moment that he was making it. And when I say dramatized, I mean making it clear to the audience that he was making that choice at the time that he was making it.

00:45:44.770 –> 00:45:51.580
Stu Willis: He literally turns up at the Avengers office talking about it. It’s…

00:45:51.301 –> 00:45:54.361
Chas Fisher: No, no, his choice to sacrifice himself.

00:45:54.670 –> 00:45:57.730
Stu Willis: But that happens in the moment, you see him put on the fucking glove.

00:45:56.851 –> 00:46:11.831
Chas Fisher: Yes, if and if you’re and if your argument is he makes that choice when he shows up in Avengers in the end of the first act, then you are also agreeing with my point that his journey as a character ends at the end of the first act, not at the

00:46:07.630 –> 00:46:08.280
Stu Willis: No. Okay.

00:46:12.091 –> 00:46:14.061
Chas Fisher: end of the movie, at the climax of the movie.

00:46:14.370 –> 00:46:22.780
Stu Willis: Okay, this is very much a discussion of semantics, because I made that point that characters stopped changing at the beginning and that there is still a journey. But it’s not—

00:46:22.850 –> 00:46:33.880
Stu Willis: There’s a journey for the character, but the characters stopped changing, and I said, I have no expectations that they will change. So the difference in our opinion is for me, it doesn’t bother me. The difference for you is it bothers you, right?

00:46:34.470 –> 00:46:42.080
Stu Willis: But you’re also saying it wasn’t dramatized, and my point is saying it did do these things. So the question isn’t their absence, because I think they’re in there.

00:46:42.090 –> 00:46:52.950
Stu Willis: It’s why you felt it was problematic, which ultimately is a personal experience thing, right, but going thing that they didn’t dramatize it and as well, like it clearly did.

00:46:53.010 –> 00:46:58.470
Stu Willis: And they’ve done it multiple times, and it works within the genre structure, and it works within the kind of hero’s journey structure.

00:46:58.480 –> 00:47:05.080
Stu Willis: And there are reasons and thinking behind all this, right, as opposed to “It’s a mistake” because it’s not.

00:47:05.190 –> 00:47:08.500
Chas Fisher: I’m not saying it was a mistake. Clearly, they’ve done it deliberately.

00:47:08.370 –> 00:47:21.920
Stu Willis: Saw it three times, so clearly, it worked well enough for you that for all your reservations about it and giving it three and a half stars… and I gave it three and a half stars. But to say that this is a mistake in craft…

00:47:21.690 –> 00:47:25.490
Chas Fisher: That I’m not using that language. You’re using that language.

00:47:25.490 –> 00:47:32.850
Chas Fisher: What I am saying is that every time I’ve watched it, and each of those three times and the third time I went begrudgingly with my mother,

00:47:34.290 –> 00:47:42.830
Chas Fisher: I felt the distinct absence of the character development for those two, which I did not feel in AVENGERS.

00:47:43.010 –> 00:47:48.500
Chas Fisher: I did not even feel it in AGE OF ULTRON. I did not feel it in WINTER SOLDIER. I did not feel it in CIVIL WAR.

00:47:49.040 –> 00:47:56.200
Chas Fisher: I did not feel it in INFINITY WAR. But I felt that absence here in ENDGAME for right or for wrong. And I’m trying to identify why.

00:47:56.285 –> 00:47:58.995
Stu Willis: Yeah, well, I can’t help you with your emotional stuntedness.

00:48:02.605 –> 00:48:06.195
Stu Willis: Speaking of emotionally stunted, shall we do Captain America?

00:48:06.290 –> 00:48:16.100
Chas Fisher: Yeah, well, you had a really good observation, Stu, about the difference between Steve’s choice to remain with Peggy being made off screen as well.

00:48:16.485 –> 00:48:30.595
Stu Willis: Yes. Okay, so, your main issue seems to be that at the end of the ENDGAME, Steve Rogers decides to effectively retire and stay in the past with Peggy.

00:48:30.985 –> 00:48:39.495
Stu Willis: And you’re like, I never saw that decision dramatized and, well, it’s clearly dramatized because we see him turn up, having made that decision.

00:48:41.050 –> 00:48:44.240
Chas Fisher: You’re putting words into my mouth.

00:48:44.240 –> 00:48:53.540
Chas Fisher: That’s not what I said in my review. Would you read out that that ending felt like it could have been tacked onto any movie, and it would have been emotionally satisfying.

00:48:53.540 –> 00:48:59.730
Chas Fisher: He chooses to be with Peggy, as opposed to being Captain America and keep on fighting and keep on serving.

00:49:00.285 –> 00:49:08.145
Stu Willis: Okay, I feel like we’re going to have to do just do a whole podcast episode on character journeys and endings.

00:49:08.155 –> 00:49:16.545
Stu Willis: I think it’s to do more with your expectations about what makes a satisfying Cap journey, resolution of the character at the end of the film than anything else.

00:49:19.985 –> 00:49:32.365
Stu Willis: For me, I agree. I would have liked to see the moment where he makes the decision to travel back in the past. I think there’s definitely clues to it when he’s in the past and sees Peggy, and he realizes it’s a possibility. That’s important.

00:49:32.445 –> 00:49:37.165
Stu Willis: And I think there’s some beautiful moments in that end scene when, particularly, I think when:

00:49:38.141 –> 00:49:40.151
Excerpts: You know, if you want, I could come with you.

00:49:43.241 –> 00:49:48.651
Excerpts: You’re a good man, Sam. This one’s on me, though. Don’t do anything stupid till I get back.

00:49:46.385 –> 00:49:53.295
Stu Willis: He’s already made the decision that that’s what he’s doing. He just hasn’t told his friends, which actually makes sense. He’s not going to tell any of them because they would talk him out of it.

00:49:49.017 –> 00:49:50.127
Julio Olivera: Oh, yeah.

00:49:50.841 –> 00:49:53.051
Excerpts: How can I?

00:49:53.417 –> 00:49:56.227
Julio Olivera: Well, he’s told Bucky, at least that’s what I think.

00:50:03.641 –> 00:50:04.401
Excerpts: It’s gonna be okay, Buck.

00:50:06.385 –> 00:50:16.655
Stu Willis: But he definitely knows what’s going on, right? And so the question is, what does it mean for the audience? If we knew that, as opposed to playing it as a reveal, the reveal is what gives it the emotional…

00:50:16.855 –> 00:50:30.845
Stu Willis: It’s the catharsis, right? And actually gives it emotional catharsis. Whereas I think if we’re in the decision with him, how does that end, like we see him go tell Bucky, “Bucky, I’m going to go back to Peggy.” It’s actually less visual storytelling.

00:50:31.075 –> 00:50:33.025
Stu Willis: It’s the same information, right?

00:50:33.415 –> 00:50:43.725
Stu Willis: But we don’t get his dilemma. You know, the only way, I think, maybe that we can get to what you want is to make it more of a decision that’s played in the immediate, which is, “Do I choose left or right?”

00:50:44.215 –> 00:50:51.755
Stu Willis: You know, that he literally has to choose between a rock and hard place. What’s beautiful about the ending of Peggy, is like Iron Man, his journey’s done.

00:50:51.765 –> 00:50:53.885
Stu Willis: It isn’t actually a hard choice for him.

00:50:54.615 –> 00:50:59.915
Stu Willis: Thanos is defeated, you know, he can retire.

00:50:59.925 –> 00:51:05.125
Stu Willis: It’s a choice, but it’s not, like, a particularly difficult one.

00:51:05.895 –> 00:51:14.525
Stu Willis: You could choose not to retire at sixty, Chas. You probably won’t be able to. I mean, if we’ve got a planet left, you know, we’re all going to be working. To eighty.

00:51:15.175 –> 00:51:17.225
Stu Willis: I mean, someone’s got to support me in my old age.

00:51:20.449 –> 00:51:34.159
Chas Fisher: Again. I was very happy with how that character journey resolved, and I just felt that those seeds that they sewed in the first act of how the snap has changed Cap…

00:51:35.249 –> 00:51:40.189
Chas Fisher: Then, as soon as he decides to go on the adventure, it’s like, well, that’s resolved now, there was no decision that

00:51:40.189 –> 00:51:50.959
Chas Fisher: he makes that kind of, in the end, well neither of them, at the end of the film, that kind of has been the result of them changing in any way.

00:51:51.066 –> 00:52:01.976
Stu Willis: For me, his friendship circle at the beginning of the film, talking about their feelings and what they lost is absolutely important for Cap making this decision.

00:52:02.340 –> 00:52:08.590
Excerpts: I went in the ice and forty five right after I met the love of my life. Woke up seventy years later. You gotta move on. You gotta move on.

00:52:17.866 –> 00:52:32.676
Stu Willis: And he has realized that through experiencing everyone else’s loss, because it’s interesting, it’s telling that he is the one leading the group and telling them to move on because he’s, actually, in a way, he’s already lost everything when he went into the ice, right.

00:52:33.066 –> 00:52:41.476
Stu Willis: So I think that is allowed. It’s all that stuff, the beating that actually gives him permission to go on, be with Peggy at the end, right?

00:52:41.484 –> 00:52:43.294
Chas Fisher: Yeah, I completely agree.

00:52:43.366 –> 00:52:47.046
Stu Willis: I don’t think he would have made this decision at the end of WINTER SOLDIER.

00:52:47.046 –> 00:52:52.726
Stu Willis: So I actually think his journey is more clearly obvious than Iron Man.

00:52:52.726 –> 00:52:57.226
Stu Willis: But that’s also because I’ve just feel that way about the Iron Man character. Tony Stark’s fun,

00:52:57.226 –> 00:53:04.696
Stu Willis: but I don’t actually think he’s changed since IRON MAN one, but I think they’re putting him under more pressure and it’s that character loop thing.

00:53:04.696 –> 00:53:13.446
Stu Willis: He’s just revealing more of the essence of who he is. But I don’t think he is surely challenged, whereas I think Steve Rogers had has a relatively more interesting journey in that way.

00:53:13.456 –> 00:53:23.476
Stu Willis: But I think the most interesting journey of all these characters is Thor, and it’s very telling that we haven’t talked about him at all, because he is actually the most… he’s the richest character because they are pushing him.

00:53:23.476 –> 00:53:29.976
Stu Willis: But they’ve also made that decision about Thor, whereas Captain America, about you do good for good sake, right?

00:53:30.566 –> 00:53:35.006
Stu Willis: And then it is one choice at the— Well, this is actually his most real choice of them all.

00:53:35.209 –> 00:53:45.679
Julio Olivera: Yeah, but I mean, I would add also that you can’t just have Captain America retire. I mean, that’s the thing. You can’t have this moment two movies ago.

00:53:45.799 –> 00:53:54.019
Julio Olivera: It goes back to what I said about Iron Man. I mean, you have to make it to where it’s okay for them to move on in this way.

00:53:54.139 –> 00:53:58.459
Julio Olivera: So that’s the other thing that I really like,

00:53:58.469 –> 00:54:06.109
Julio Olivera: that worked for me, is that it’s just that he retires because now I have a time machine and I know how to find Peggy.

00:54:06.109 –> 00:54:19.879
Julio Olivera: It’s like he retires because he’s like, they’re going to be fine, you know? It’s like I just fought like the biggest intergalactic invasion, and I was surrounded by people that are, like, more powerful than me. And they were doing fine. They were kicking ass.

00:54:19.889 –> 00:54:32.319
Julio Olivera: So, I think that they set up the table in a weight again through like twenty, twenty one movies in a way that allows his character to make this decision now in a way that it couldn’t have been made,

00:54:33.109 –> 00:54:41.519
Julio Olivera: You know, at the end of WINTER SOLDIER, or at the end of CIVIL WAR. I get to the end of ENDGAME, and I buy that Captain America would retire.

00:54:42.109 –> 00:54:49.919
Julio Olivera: And that’s, you know, not just because of the decisions we saw him make on screen, but also because of everything else that happened around him.

00:54:50.106 –> 00:55:04.716
Chas Fisher: Could I ask you a question? Just pose a scenario for you. He’s back in 1970. He spotted Peggy. He’s got the Pym particles. He goes back up to Tony, hands over the Pym particles and says, “Go on without me. I’m staying.”

00:55:06.406 –> 00:55:14.816
Chas Fisher: He’s done his job. He’s found the infinity stones. He’s handed them back. They’re going to undo the snap. He’s—

00:55:13.809 –> 00:55:17.819
Julio Olivera: I don’t buy it. Captain America is not going to be okay until it’s all good.

00:55:17.623 –> 00:55:21.873
Stu Willis: Yeah, I was going to say, if that’s your perception of doing a job that I never want to work with you, Chas.

00:55:23.923 –> 00:55:28.033
Stu Willis: Oh, it’s all good. I synced the files in Resolve. Bye now.

00:55:28.906 –> 00:55:39.216
Chas Fisher: But it would at least dramatize him making a choice. And, you know, Tony could say, “All right, no Cap, Come on, let’s get the job done,” and then he goes.

00:55:40.523 –> 00:55:45.783
Stu Willis: Okay, so we need to be very clear here. Issue isn’t because the choice is clearly dramatized.

00:55:45.783 –> 00:55:52.323
Stu Willis: We know he made that choice. And look, and I’m going to compare it to the Game of thrones episode dealing with Sansa, and

00:55:52.323 –> 00:56:02.083
Stu Willis: we have no idea about whether or not she was at all involved in decision making with the Knights of the Vale turning up when they did, right, we still don’t really know.

00:56:02.613 –> 00:56:05.793
Stu Willis: It’s very clear that Captain America made the decision to change with Peggy.

00:56:05.803 –> 00:56:11.113
Stu Willis: It wasn’t the machine broke, that was a very active choice. And that is very clear, right?

00:56:11.443 –> 00:56:20.133
Stu Willis: Do you disagree with that? What you mean by dramatization is being within the moment when they’ve made that decision.

00:56:21.265 –> 00:56:29.925
Chas Fisher: And understanding it, because I would agree with Julio the on second and third watch, that moment with Tony and Doctor Strange,

00:56:30.015 –> 00:56:36.815
Chas Fisher: that is when he’s making a decision, and we are with the character that is making the decision. It’s just we don’t understand as the audience that that’s what’s happening.

00:56:37.045 –> 00:56:42.215
Julio Olivera: But we do understand that he is making a decision. I mean, even if you don’t know what’s happening, you do.

00:56:42.225 –> 00:56:45.635
Julio Olivera: I mean, you know, they don’t do those slow mo close ups for nothing.

00:56:45.635 –> 00:56:54.505
Julio Olivera: I mean, you do realize that he’s making a decision at that point. It’s just that, I guess, on first watch the magnitude of it doesn’t really hit you until you get to the end.

00:56:54.505 –> 00:57:04.965
Julio Olivera: But I think that when you see, and we’re back on Iron Man, when you see Tony and close up slow mo like watching Doctor Strange lift his finger,

00:57:05.275 –> 00:57:13.775
Julio Olivera: I mean, I would imagine ninety-nine percent of us thought, okay, well, he’s going to go at it with Thanos and he’s probably not going to make it.

00:57:14.005 –> 00:57:22.255
Julio Olivera: So I don’t think that we kind of, like, made the full on rationalization of like, “Oh, but he’s doing it because of this and this and this”,

00:57:22.255 –> 00:57:29.755
Julio Olivera: but you do get the feeling that there’s a decision being made that and you kinda have an idea what consequences it’s going to happen to have.

00:57:30.706 –> 00:57:42.916
Stu Willis: This ties into the Unfilmables episode, which is probably going to be out after this, is literally a close up off a slow push in on Doctor Strange raising his finger and a slow push in

00:57:43.306 –> 00:57:45.936
Stu Willis: on iron man. We know he’s making a decision.

00:57:46.106 –> 00:57:56.836
Stu Willis: He doesn’t know that he’s like, he’s choosing to stab himself through the heart with the knife. There is a version of this where he might survive. He’s prepared to take that risk. He’s making the decision to act.

00:57:58.093 –> 00:58:07.003
Chas Fisher: Not if his decision is to take the gauntlet, then he knows that, that I’m going to die.

00:58:02.672 –> 00:58:08.982
Julio Olivera: Yeah. Yeah, I think that he knows that he’s dying.

00:58:08.506 –> 00:58:16.416
Stu Willis: But he doesn’t talk about that with Hulk? Isn’t Hulk wanting to use the gauntlet? And he’s like, “Well, specifically this suit’s designed to withstand it.”

00:58:16.472 –> 00:58:23.882
Julio Olivera: No. Thor volunteers. And then the Hulk says that he’s the one that’s the most equipped to withstand the snap.

00:58:22.726 –> 00:58:35.896
Stu Willis: Okay, so there was a version of that choice that was offered up before this, like at the end of the second act, and Tony Stark chooses not to volunteer, and he pointedly doesn’t volunteer.

00:58:36.086 –> 00:58:40.216
Stu Willis: But when push comes to shove, he volunteers, and you’re saying that he doesn’t change?

00:58:43.606 –> 00:58:44.876
Stu Willis: Yes, Q.E.D., motherfucker.

00:58:45.615 –> 00:58:53.125
Chas Fisher: But what is he volunteering for? A suicide mission. Like to me, it’s clearly like he doesn’t even know if he could do the snap.

00:58:53.506 –> 00:58:58.996
Stu Willis: Yes, but he knows it’s extremely dangerous, and he chooses not to, and then he does it anyway.

00:58:59.006 –> 00:59:06.216
Stu Willis: So the point is, there is a lot of change going on. The fact that you don’t think it is a complete reversal of who the character is—

00:59:06.015 –> 00:59:15.985
Chas Fisher: I don’t need a reversal, and there are a whole lot of what I would call decisions being made along the way, like, the point is that any moment that they’re making these decisions,

00:59:16.305 –> 00:59:30.125
Chas Fisher: I’m not there with them, seeing or being told what the options are and what the consequences of those options are. I have no access to the interiority of the character when they’re making those decisions and what’s at stake for them for making those decisions.

00:59:30.206 –> 00:59:37.826
Stu Willis: Which is why they played as reveals. So in the case of Steve Rogers, it would be,

00:59:37.836 –> 00:59:45.526
Stu Willis: it’s literally a scene of him explaining to another character giving character exposition right, which is pretty boring and inert.

00:59:46.246 –> 00:59:59.896
Stu Willis: There is a version where Tony, we actually see him make the video recording at the end, or start to, like, that he has got to do that kind of like, looks at his daughter and does it.

00:59:59.906 –> 01:00:14.576
Stu Willis: And for me, it wouldn’t necessarily undermine the film that it is and will probably give more gravitas or contrast if you see him being really quite heartfelt towards his daughter and they cut to him being really joking with Steve Rogers that he’s putting on a front.

01:00:14.576 –> 01:00:21.516
Stu Willis: To me that would kind of deepen more of my understanding of who character, who Tony is because you’re seeing contrast, right?

01:00:21.516 –> 01:00:31.196
Stu Willis: You’ve seen the contrast of him being heartfelt and understanding that he is possibly not going to make it. But then he’s telling Steve something else, right?

01:00:31.144 –> 01:00:42.954
Julio Olivera: Okay. I think that there’s something to be said also for just the awesomeness of that reveal, w hen you see that he has the infinity stones and the moment that you see that he has infinity stones you as the audience.

01:00:42.954 –> 01:00:46.554
Julio Olivera: You realize, okay, that said, he’s dead. Right? And

01:00:47.044 –> 01:00:53.114
Julio Olivera: if you put in that call to his daughter, I think that you slow things out things out too much.

01:00:53.124 –> 01:00:56.654
Julio Olivera: And you I think you allow the audience to maybe get a head of what’s happening.

01:00:56.701 –> 01:01:09.661
Chas Fisher: I’m not saying within the context of that climax as they structured it on that decision, there’s no way that slowing it down would have worked. I’m not saying that what my solution is a good one or an ideal one.

01:01:09.671 –> 01:01:21.611
Chas Fisher: It’s just my observation is that to me, the issues for me is that they made a ll the decisions as characters at the end of the first act and then in the

01:01:21.871 –> 01:01:26.901
Chas Fisher: final act, when they are making what is supposed to be the big,

01:01:27.601 –> 01:01:31.771
Chas Fisher: climactic resolution choice for their characters,

01:01:31.781 –> 01:01:33.811
Chas Fisher: We are not with them when they’re making it.

01:01:34.128 –> 01:01:38.838
Stu Willis: But we are. We like we literally see Tony and get all the stones stuck in his gauntlet.

01:01:38.701 –> 01:01:40.161
Chas Fisher: We’ve had this discussion already three times.

01:01:41.428 –> 01:01:44.638
Stu Willis: I’m still failing to understand.

01:01:44.645 –> 01:01:54.825
Julio Olivera: No, I think that I think that Chas’ issue is not that, because we do see them make the decision is just that when we see him there for at least the first time you’re watching the movie,

01:01:54.835 –> 01:02:00.635
Julio Olivera: when you see him make the decision, you don’t understand the full ramifications of what he’s decided.

01:02:00.645 –> 01:02:02.905
Julio Olivera: You just know that he made a decision and that’s it.

01:02:03.085 –> 01:02:06.915
Julio Olivera: It doesn’t bother me. I’m fine. I think I really enjoyed the reveals.

01:02:06.925 –> 01:02:13.195
Julio Olivera: Part of it might have to do with, you know, like I said, we’re twenty one movies in so anyway that they can freshen things up.

01:02:13.205 –> 01:02:19.905
Julio Olivera: That’s fine. You know, I like the way that it’s structure in a way that, you know, it’s more about surprises.

01:02:19.915 –> 01:02:29.255
Julio Olivera: Big reveals instead of deliberation because we know these characters so well by now, I think that we have the shortcuts to really understand why they did what they did.

01:02:29.745 –> 01:02:37.365
Julio Olivera: So I mean to me, like the visual payoff of seeing the stones, of seeing an old cap, you know, all that stuff,

01:02:37.375 –> 01:02:41.655
Julio Olivera: it’s, I think, so, rewarding that I don’t need the rationalization.

01:02:41.640 –> 01:02:42.840
Stu Willis: It’s cinema, man.

01:02:43.620 –> 01:02:50.410
Chas Fisher: Yes, and look, it worked for you guys. And Lord knows, it probably seems to have worked for the vast majority of people.

01:02:50.410 –> 01:02:55.960
Chas Fisher: And it’s just something that I can now be conscious of in my own

01:02:55.960 –> 01:03:10.430
Chas Fisher: writing, is the difference in the effect on the audience about, you know, putting the audience with the character when they’re making a choice, as opposed to revealing afterwards what that choice was.

01:03:10.637 –> 01:03:17.947
Stu Willis: Yeah, but it’s interesting. I think the lesson you, possibly, my learning is about,

01:03:17.947 –> 01:03:27.497
Stu Willis: It’s an interesting question for you to ponder about this film has obviously been a very effective for a lot of people, and those moments hit them really hard.

01:03:27.687 –> 01:03:37.797
Stu Willis: So the question for you, I think, as a writer, and I’m making it a generic you because this is something I think we can all reflect on, is if they didn’t work for you, why didn’t they work for you?

01:03:37.797 –> 01:03:47.247
Stu Willis: But whether what you would have done would have worked for other people, because I’m not telling writers to be inauthentic,

01:03:47.637 –> 01:03:54.077
Stu Willis: but there is, when it’s a technical question like this, which is like, we know this is going to happen.

01:03:54.087 –> 01:04:05.317
Stu Willis: What is the effect on the audience, and often reveals are where the emotion is, right? And a film like this is us saying goodbye the characters rather than it being a kind of,

01:04:06.637 –> 01:04:09.597
Stu Willis: Mamet, in the moment, experiencing the world with the characters.

01:04:09.597 –> 01:04:19.247
Stu Willis: This film was an opportunity for us to say with his characters, so you literally get a shut of Tony Stark lying down and people coming up to say goodbye to him, alright, and they have a funeral.

01:04:19.167 –> 01:04:23.997
Chas Fisher: Oh, man. I was crying at that point on the first watch, and the second watch, and the third watch.

01:04:25.237 –> 01:04:38.667
Stu Willis: The thing is, what you have suggested may have satisfied you dramatically better, but maybe you wouldn’t have had those emotional moments of the film makes its prioritized emotion over dramatic immediacy.

01:04:38.667 –> 01:04:48.737
Stu Willis: And that’s what we’re really on some levels talking about the dramatic immediacy of this where these films are a lot more manipulative about what they’re doing. They’re not making you feel like you’re,

01:04:49.097 –> 01:05:03.617
Stu Willis: I don’t feel like I’m just sitting here watching these characters in the moment. I know I’m being manipulated by master filmmakers. There’s no sense of trying to be, yes, like there is a third hand here that I’m aware of, personally, and that doesn’t bother me.

01:05:04.423 –> 01:05:18.023
Julio Olivera: Right. But also we should all be so lucky to at some point, have the opportunity to, you know, to write a screenplay that deals with characters that, having been established for so long and they were so successful that we’re allowed to use the shorthand, the emotional shorthand to get to those moments.

01:05:19.073 –> 01:05:26.293
Julio Olivera: I guess looking at it as like, screenwriters are just, you know, not in those leagues then, yeah.

01:05:26.293 –> 01:05:32.093
Julio Olivera: I mean, maybe the Chas way is the way to go because, you know, you’re not dealing with IP that’s recognized,

01:05:32.093 –> 01:05:43.603
Julio Olivera: that has, like such emotional resonance already that you can, you know, you can get by without showing all those moments that are not working for Chas, or the moments that are missing for Chas and still get an emotional response.

01:05:43.603 –> 01:05:50.693
Julio Olivera: Like I think if you’re just writing a random story about a superhero that nobody knows, maybe it’s a lot harder to get that reaction.

01:05:50.693 –> 01:06:01.783
Julio Olivera: So I mean, it’s, I guess, because you guys are always trying to pivot your, everything that, your discussions to something that the average screenwriter can use.

01:06:02.153 –> 01:06:07.183
Julio Olivera: I think that we can’t lose sight of the fact that yeah, well, there— the screenwriters of AVENGERS

01:06:07.193 –> 01:06:15.873
Julio Olivera: ENDGAME had sort of like, the curse and the advantage of having all those past ten years of lore and fandom and all that stuff.

01:06:15.873 –> 01:06:25.093
Julio Olivera: So I think that when you have that, you can take those shortcuts or you can make those decisions that give you that surprise, the benefit of the reveals.

01:06:25.153 –> 01:06:31.783
Julio Olivera: And then it’s okay, where you know, if you’re dealing with a different kind of property, a smaller property, maybe you shouldn’t.

01:06:32.300 –> 01:06:43.600
Chas Fisher: Absolutely. It comes down to taste like I went into this movie kind of expecting to see the farewell to Cap and Tony, and

01:06:43.600 –> 01:06:58.260
Chas Fisher: then I felt that I was missing any kind of narrative deepening or understanding of their characters, whereas what they played on was, these are the characters that narrative deepening happened over the last twenty one movies.

01:06:58.310 –> 01:07:05.780
Chas Fisher: You’re now here just to revel emotionally in the end of them, but we’ve all got to go. Thank you, Julio for being up at

01:07:06.500 –> 01:07:13.250
Chas Fisher: two o’clock in the morning, the day that he’s flying away on his honeymoon, to record a Draft Zero episode with us.

01:07:13.187 –> 01:07:14.897
Julio Olivera: What a great start to my vacation.

01:07:14.640 –> 01:07:23.600
Chas Fisher: Maybe one day we’ll come back and look at Thor’s journey because I think Thor’s journey is in stark contrast to this.

01:07:23.600 –> 01:07:36.870
Chas Fisher: His decision to get up and fight in the third act is a huge reversal or a huge sort of climactic triumph of him over what he’s gone through as a result of the snap, not just him going “well,

01:07:36.870 –> 01:07:39.250
Chas Fisher: I’m a hero, and I’m going to keep heroing right now.”

01:07:39.447 –> 01:07:52.787
Stu Willis: You have to do all three whore films \<laughs> all three Thor films, and INFINITY WAR too, I think, to do an effective breakdown of his character journey, possibly worth doing.

01:07:52.887 –> 01:07:56.037
Stu Willis: But yes, I think to get the final final word,

01:07:56.167 –> 01:08:10.737
Stu Willis: This is making me want to relisten to catharsis, our episode on catharsis, because I think part of one of the ways that catharsis works is through revelation that you catch up to the film, rather than you are in the moment with the character of the film.

01:08:10.737 –> 01:08:17.657
Stu Willis: Kind of separates yourself, so you have to catch up to the characters, and that’s part of how you experience the emotion.

01:08:18.147 –> 01:08:27.277
Stu Willis: And I think the fact that, ultimately, what makes this film really difficult to break down is it, as much as it’s a standalone film, it is the final act of a series of films.

01:08:27.527 –> 01:08:41.357
Stu Willis: So it’s got, like, that stuff writ large and playing this stuff out is revelation, I think is about trying to, even if it is not too fast for, say, trying to have that feeling close to catharsis.

01:08:41.503 –> 01:08:45.113
Julio Olivera: You should open with that, too, would have been done in, like, ten minutes.

01:08:44.942 –> 01:08:46.982
Chas Fisher: Well, we can do it in the edit.

01:08:47.447 –> 01:08:55.257
Stu Willis: Put it right at the beginning. Yeah, actually, it’s not catharsis. It’s for lack of a better word, grief.

01:08:55.647 –> 01:09:05.857
Stu Willis: Goodbyes are always post decision there. Post the event, you know, even the way they were talking about break ups or death.

01:09:06.647 –> 01:09:15.817
Stu Willis: The goodbye is after the event has happened. Even if we’re with someone as they’re dying to say goodbye, we know it’s inevitable.

01:09:15.827 –> 01:09:21.557
Stu Willis: You don’t plan ahead for that stuff. So in the context of this film, they’re letting the audience say goodbye.

01:09:21.557 –> 01:09:26.757
Stu Willis: And for some people, it probably is that letting go, and it is similar to grief.

01:09:26.757 –> 01:09:38.117
Stu Willis: It’s a kind of form of catharsis. So it has to happen after the fact to give us that moment of processing. That’s why there is quite literally a funeral at the end of the film for Tony, you know, so we can process that.

01:09:38.397 –> 01:09:49.407
Julio Olivera: You see, that happens to explain why I actually react so strongly to the ending. Chas is mad that Tony didn’t say goodbye to his daughter. But I’m just glad that we got to say goodbye to him.

01:09:49.365 –> 01:09:53.245
Chas Fisher: Yeah, and seems to always happen with us.

01:09:53.245 –> 01:09:58.075
Chas Fisher: We kind of only understand our thesis or right at the end, but I think, Stu, I think

01:09:58.075 –> 01:10:08.945
Chas Fisher: That’s why you’re raising catharsis. Because catharsis is about putting the audience in relationship with their own emotions.

01:10:08.955 –> 01:10:12.965
Chas Fisher: It’s distancing them from the film. You’re not with the character.

01:10:12.965 –> 01:10:19.675
Chas Fisher: You’re not empathising with them. You’re with yourself essentially, and that’s what this film is doing.

01:10:19.675 –> 01:10:29.545
Chas Fisher: It structured that way so that the audience at these points is in their own relationship with Tony and Steve.

01:10:29.555 –> 01:10:37.635
Chas Fisher: And, clearly, that is a brilliant craft decision that works for most people, including you, Julio.

01:10:37.645 –> 01:10:48.105
Chas Fisher: And maybe, as you say, Julio, ‘cause this is a finale off the back of twenty odd other films.

01:10:48.105 –> 01:10:56.035
Chas Fisher: And maybe that is what was missing for me is that I wanted to be with the characters more.

01:10:56.095 –> 01:11:07.785
Chas Fisher: I wanted to have the experiences I had in previous films where I was with them, as opposed to watching them, and or maybe I’m just dead inside.

01:11:10.882 –> 01:11:15.692
Stu Willis: And that’s a good opportunity, even though this is a short episode, to thank our patrons.

01:11:15.815 –> 01:11:24.775
Chas Fisher: In particular superhero patreons who bring you the most Draft Zero most often Matteo, Nick, Daniel, Carrie,

01:11:25.465 –> 01:11:34.975
Chas Fisher: the relentlessly inexhaustible Chris, who is cutting our other episodes, Paul, Sandra, Rob, and Cross.

01:11:35.282 –> 01:11:41.162
Stu Willis: We are actually looking at remastering all the old Steven Cleary episodes.

01:11:41.172 –> 01:11:55.692
Stu Willis: So if you’re interested in supporting that particular project, as well as exporting more Draft Zero more often, please consider joining us on Patron. Or you could buy some merchandise, like hoodies, which pretty much the only person that models the hoodies is me.

01:11:57.510 –> 01:12:04.530
Chas Fisher: That will be the thumbnail chapter image for this moment is Stu.

01:12:05.970 –> 01:12:07.420
Chas Fisher: Thank you so much Julio!

01:12:09.570 –> 01:12:11.880
Chas Fisher: Yeah, we are the contrarians.

01:12:12.180 –> 01:12:14.010
Julio Olivera: It’s nothing like this stuff.

01:12:14.870 –> 01:12:18.900
Chas Fisher: Well, in in a good way, I’m going to plug your your podcast for you.

01:12:18.900 –> 01:12:33.880
Chas Fisher: Julio and Alex rage against the rotten tomato machine in their podcast called We Are The Contrarians where they look at films that either score really high or really low on rotten tomatoes and

01:12:33.880 –> 01:12:37.180
Chas Fisher: then take the contrary in position, and

01:12:37.950 –> 01:12:42.440
Chas Fisher: finally, in the final section of the podcast they actually tell you how they really feel about the films.

01:12:42.440 –> 01:12:53.430
Chas Fisher: And it’s really great what you can learn, and enjoy hearing people tear down films that you love or big up terrible movies and some of your best episodes,

01:12:53.440 –> 01:12:59.580
Chas Fisher: I think Julio covered some real gems among the rotten tomatoes dumpster.

01:13:00.121 –> 01:13:12.791
Julio Olivera: We just watched the GUILT TRIP, which that episode should be other time that this comes out, and I had never seen it, and it was actually okay. It’s like a twenty something, I think, around on rotten tomatoes. Everybody trashed it when he came out.

01:13:13.021 –> 01:13:21.531
Julio Olivera: It’s not like a great movie, but it’s not a horrible movie. And it was one of those things where I was like, you know, kind of like a GREEN BOOK.

01:13:23.750 –> 01:13:25.760
Chas Fisher: They do have a great GREEN BOOK episode.

01:13:26.021 –> 01:13:28.431
Julio Olivera: Yeah, the pleasant surprises are the best.

01:13:28.350 –> 01:13:33.260
Chas Fisher: All right, thanks everyone. Anna’s got to go to work. So I’ve got to go and be a father. Unlike Tony.

01:13:35.707 –> 01:13:39.227
Stu Willis: But why start now, Chas? was that fully dramatized?

01:13:50.750 –> 01:14:03.780
Chas Fisher: I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general, and you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at Draft hyphen Zero dot com. At the website,

01:14:03.780 –> 01:14:14.290
Chas Fisher: you’ll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes, as well as links to support us and spread the word for free by a rating and review on Apple podcast.

01:14:14.300 –> 01:14:28.460
Chas Fisher: Very important for spreading word. Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar, or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patron page two support us getting these episodes to you quicker.

01:14:28.950 –> 01:14:31.760
Chas Fisher: Thanks. And thanks for listening.