DZ-02: Do the Screenplay Gurus score big at the Box Office? — Transcript

You have to start living life, Ryan. It's time to go home.

Hi, I'm Chas Fisher. And I'm Stuart Willis.

Welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two Aussie filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work. And this is episode two.

So, last episode, we looked at the work of the gurus and how they applied to two Oscar-nominated screenplays, Philomena and Dallas Buyers Club.

So, we found areas of those two scripts where the guru formulas, as we're referring to them, Snyder, Hauge and Vogler, fit and some didn't fit. But I just wanted to say, because I don't think we covered it in our last episode, that we were stretching these formulas to fit at several points. And I think as soon as you are doing that, as soon as you're stretching them in any way, they're losing their value as a rigid tool. And I think it was something that we came to is that these structures may have a use and a purpose in writing, but they shouldn't be adhered to as if they are gospel.

I think what was funny, I was listening to a podcast with Shane Black about Iron Man 3, yet another Jeff Goldsmith Q&A, and basically he was presented with an analysis of Iron Man 3 in the context of the hero's journey. And Shane was like, maybe I should just play the quote. The thing is, none of

The things you just said, although wonderfully articulate and intricate and perhaps insightful, actually went through my head at any given point.

But then he expanded the point, which I think is very true, is that you get a sense of the structure of films by watching them and by reading screenplays. And that's how kind of you absorb an understanding of how they work. So, in some ways, the analysis, it becomes, to me, it becomes a chicken and egg thing. That the hero's journey has become so common in the way that we talk about filmmaking that at what extent is our scripts then getting made with it consciously and then that becoming feeding back subconsciously. so

Should we just mention why we're repeating this exercise for episode two.

With the two films we looked at last week critically acclaimed films biopics very character driven and we went well it's probably to be fair to these gurus they're talking about archetypal stories which are more likely to be used in large tentpole movies so chas and I looked through the list of the top US domestic box office last year, 2013, and picked the first two movies that were non-franchise, non-sequels. And they were two animated films. They were Frozen and Gravity.

Is that a little bit controversial, the cool gravity and animated film?

I'm just, I was watching all the, um, the previous last night. I mean, I think it's controversial, but so much of it is, you know, it's, it's such an interesting blend of animation and live action.

Well, that's a really good point that I was actually wanting to ask you about before we jumped into our analysis exercise, which is... You've got a lot of experience. You've worked in post-production on a number of big animated movies. And I wanted to ask about Frozen and the script. And what you're suggesting is this could apply to Gravity as well. Is how much do you feel that the script that we're reading and analysing today, how much do you feel that that's the script that they had ready and then said, now we're going to animate this script?

That distinction creates a false dichotomy I mean the fact that you even call it post-production in the context of animation is a little bit misleading yeah yeah because it's production but it's not even it's a different kind of production animation is a very particular way of making films I think it's extremely iterative and I think that's awesome and I think there's a reason that animated films on the whole tend to be better story-wise than live action films because they go through a lot more of a rigid process to get into production and and you actually also get to see the film really early in in the process you know I've watched story reels that are basically just boards of the whole film I've cried in the screenings of storyboarded films which shows how much of the story can be worked out without any of the other the other stuff you know I still think you can learn so much from what she's done on the page Look, I had a different experience with you reading the script because I read it after seeing the movie. So, those moments, those little montage bits were shorthand to me and I could reference the emotional or the visual of the film that I saw. So, it's interesting that you had a different experience, which is why I think it's probably worth jumping off from here to talk about Gravity rather than Frozen. Because Gravity is a film that is very driven by action and visuals and there were people that criticized the script before it went into production. Script shut out as Bane Dry a dry script yet obviously the film itself is an incredibly riveting experience and is certainly and what I

Had what you had with Frozen is what I experienced with Gravity because I'd heard so much bad stuff about the Gravity script that I went into it thinking oh this is going to be a chore but I'd seen the film before I read it and for me the film was one of the greatest cinematic experiences of my life to date, watching it. And while I was reading it, I was feeling those emotions that I felt in the cinema. So, I actually felt that the script was very well realized and an excellent read, but I was prejudiced because I'd been in that film and had been on that rollercoaster.

I mean, you can't help bringing those emotions as kind of flashbacks to the experience. And that's why as much as possible in this podcast, we have been reading the scripts first. But unfortunately, in both these cases, I did see the films first. And I think there is some really clever writing before we get into the guru stuff. One of my favorite little sections that I highlighted just in terms of trying to recreate the cinematic experience on the page is around page 24. The PDF that's out as part of the awards thing does not have page numbers in the corner. So I'm going off the page number of the document reader. So on page, about page 24, it's when Ryan, the astronaut, is floating away and she's taking quick, short breaths. And they have literally written in big print R-O-R-O, like every breath. They're writing as a separate line. and it really to me on the page really gives you that sense of how much she's struggling to breathe and there's other little examples throughout of how they tried to write the experience for the audience on the page and I I do think it's worth looking at and maybe you may see it as dry but you know hey this is one of the the top grossing films of last year and it's critically acclaimed to look at this script and say that it's bad I think is taking the wrong lessons from it and I

Again as I said I found it very involving the the whole thing there was only a couple of points where I was thrown out of the read and interestingly they were the same points where I was thrown out of the film as well.

Oh so we should probably so let's start with a big summary for those of you who haven't seen Gravity essentially it is a and I'm quoting from the script here a space suspense in 3d that there is some astronauts walking above planet earth on the the shuttle Explorer I believe it is yep the Explorer space shuttle and one of these is Ryan Stone a kind of first-time astronaut she's had like six months training And she's up to the area to install some kind of doohickey into some other doohickey. It's kind of irrelevant. And then basically they get a warning that there's debris orbiting the planet. And from there, things just escalate because ultimately it's a disaster movie. It's like they're on the Titanic and the ship's going down and she's got to try and find a way home. That sounds like I'm giving you a short summary because that is pretty much the overall of the story. There is some specific beats that we'll talk about, but you don't really need to know much more than that. Ryan Stone needs to find a way to get back to Earth from space so she can survive.

Well, I guess we'll talk about this, but there's an A plot, which is she has to survive and get back to Earth. And then there's the B plot, which is she has to want to survive and get back to Earth. I'm not sure.

If I'd call that the B plot. I'd call that the motivation. But you know let's let's start with yeah let's let's just jump in right and for this week I think we should probably just focus on Snyder and and Vogler Michael Hauge has talked about in last episode has some overlap with Snyder but his stuff is actually a lot more stripped down because to be fair to him a lot more of what he writes is about character development and its relationship with to structure it's prescriptive in in ways that Snyder is about you know plot but it's not worth going into here, so let's just focus on Snyder and Vogler for the time being.

Sure. Can we, do you mind if we, as we get to each plot point, we'll discuss both gurus rather than going through each guru at a time?

Well, okay. I'm going to put it out here at the beginning. I'm going to be controversial. I think both films are better examples of the Hero's Journey than they are of Snyder's Save the Cat. Okay.

Interesting. I would say, I would say that's true of Gravity, but I felt less so for Frozen.

Oh, because I think Frozen is very Hero's Journey. Okay, so with Gravity, kind of, you know, the classic Snyder thing is what is your opening image? And as we talked about last week, what is the final image, the kind of mirror that sets up the story? The script quite deliberately opens on black and in silence, and then it has a card kind of setting the scene. But further down on page one, you have what is, you know, you could probably consider more of the opening image, which is... You know, out of space, 600 kilometers above planet Earth. And it's described as mythical and majestic. So we're above space in silence. The mirror image is her on land, back on Earth, standing up and being surrounded by sound. And that's something that they've done a very good job of in the film. It's not as written as much on the script, but the sound plays a particularly important role in creating that contrast. And, you know, and that is kind of the structure of the story going from space where, you know, nothing can survive to Earth where everything can survive.

And so, did you find in the opening sequence of the film there to be a save the cat moment or a statement of the theme of the film?

This is interesting. I mean, and we'll touch on it with both films. We're very lucky that the filmmakers have been very open about what they're intending the films to say. And so, I'm going to go into this knowing that, you know, Cuarón has said this is a film about survival and wanting to survive and and life and so when I went looking for you know instead of trying to determine what the theme is I was looking around page five trying to see if there was anything that mentioned that specifically and the closest I've got is this story where uh Matt Kowalski who's the astronaut played by George Clooney talks about how he went back to earth and his wife basically ran off with another another man and he kind of had to pack up his bag and move on. And in some ways, that is the theme of the story, which is about you need to move on. You need to let go, or don't let go, as the trailer of the film, you know, was about, it is about that sense of moving on. So, I think you could, I mean, this is definitely stretching it, but I could definitely see that those stories that Matt tell, in some ways, kind of meant to be paralleling the survival journey in space. They're meant to be that idea that our life is survival.

Absolutely, but one thing that I think we should say then is, so far we've analysed three screenplays, and you should basically throw out Snyder's demand that a character state in dialogue pretty much on the nose what the theme of the film is. Do something like this, where it is done in subtext, it's done cleverly, it's done engagingly. Although- Interestingly- Oh yeah, go.

Although Frozen does state the theme in dialogue, it's just on page seven rather than on page five. And we're lucky that Jennifer Lee has said, you know, fear is the theme of Frozen. And the troll says fear will be your enemy on page seven. Yeah. But it's also a children's film. You know, it needs a clarity of meaning that I think Gravity doesn't necessarily, it could be a little bit more subtle with that stuff.

Did you notice a line that on page 20, it might be 21 in the PDF of Gravity, where Kowalski He says, as Ryan is spinning off structure, flying into outer space, struggling to detach herself, he says, you can't tune the world out up here. And it's such an on the nose line that it jumped out at me. And then I went and rewatched the trailer that has that whole section lifted holus bolus from the film. And they've cut the line because it rings out as so false. Like, you don't give someone a morality lesson as they're spinning off into space.

Yes, I've had friends that did not like the dialogue in this film. But I think they're trying to go for something that was very functional rather than clever.

Absolutely. But I'm just saying they cut that line. It is interesting, I thought. And on the nose, this is the theme of the film or the journey of the character. And we're cutting it.

Well, because I think the tagline was, you know, in some ways the theme. Don't let go. You know, it kind of has this dual meaning to me. You know, it's about letting go of the past. You know, it's like up. Got to let go of the house. You know, talk about a visual theme. And also the idea of clinging on to survival, you know. You know, it is a very symbolic film and I think Cuarón's very clever with the use of symbolism and he calls out the symbolism in the screenplay.

So, should we jump to the catalyst? Yeah. What do you think the catalyst is?

I think, well, I think the catalyst is fairly clear, which is, it's in a line of dialogue and that's what's interesting is they did a catalyst in dialogue, you know, they told rather than showed and that the line is mission control tells them no rad reports strike satellite is incurred on missile strike the impact is created a cloud of debris orbiting at 25 miles per hour current debris orbit does not overlap with your trajectory will keep you posted on any developments that is absolutely the catalyst that is the the shattering of the ordinary world in vulgar terms and it is kind of it's a call to adventure in a way actually

Can we can we talk about that for a second because Because both Vogler and Hauge, because Hauge calls it an opportunity, it's interesting to me that they call the inciting incident or the catalyst an opportunity or a call to adventure. Because I think in certain stories, and Gravity is a prime example, it's really not a call to adventure at all, or it's not an opportunity at all.

Okay, I'm going to get a little bit more specific. In Vogler, not all the time, but the call to adventure is given by a herald, a character called the Herald. So it's not necessarily shown so the in here the herald is mission control and and I'm quoting from the writer's journey here and just says the hero is presented with a problem challenge or adventure to undertake Once presented with the call to adventure, she can no longer remain in the comfort of the ordinary world, right? Yeah, okay. And then he gives example. Obviously, the whole, the call to adventure from Princess Leia, you know, come fight the Empire. But what's interesting about Star Wars is it's given to Obi-Wan Kenobi, not Luke, even though Luke ultimately becomes the hero. And that ties into something that I think is important about this film, which is, I think, Matt Kowalski is the mentor character. He is the Obi-Wan of the film. Absolutely, yes. Right? And what's interesting, and yes, we're jumping to Vogler, he does drive the story for, like, the first half.

The midpoint of the film is her having to drive the story.

Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking about that because it's like, oh, you know, the classic idea that the protagonist needs to be driving the story at every point. Ryan Stone doesn't. She makes a couple of bad decisions, you know, potentially her refusal of the call, which is like three lines of dialogue where he's like, you need to put a bow in it, Dr. Stone, Matt says to her. And she says, I can't. And he's like, I'm not going to ask you again. One second, not one second, you know, shut it down. And then she does it. It's like half a page refusal, right? To accept that how bad things are going to get.

The reason why I asked about the opportunity and the call to adventure is I think it's interesting because it does impact whether or not there's a refusal or not. I mean, you've highlighted there are a few lines of her not doing as she's ordered. And I think that was a really good interpretation that maybe she's refusing to acknowledge how dangerous this situation is. But beyond that, it feels like when you've got a catalyst or an inciting incident that is a genuine opportunity that a protagonist lunges for... Then there is often a refusal to the call, which isn't related to the protagonist, not wanting to leave the comfort of the known and leaping into the unknown. But where in this film, there's a shower of debris hurtling its way at you, there's only so long you can refuse it, if at all.

Yeah, she's forced to. That's why it's a call to adventure. but the reluctance I think which we've talked about is important for character and this is jumping to Frozen I don't think there's any reluctance of the call you know refusal of call in Frozen and we'll get into that more when we get there but I think that's one of the few points where it deviates but here her reluctance ultimately you could see it's tied to the idea that she's reluctant to survive she doesn't value her own life I think that's what it's trying to say both one she doesn't understand the the level of the danger and two she doesn't you know she doesn't appreciate her own her own life and I don't think that would have been I think this moment as small as it is is important for setting up the later revelations of her character you know because I think what's interesting is here is this idea that she's someone who has to choose to survive is that we get no hint that's who she is until there's this this moment where she won't let go of her damn bloody the the doohickey going into the doohacking um should

We should we be fair to Snyder and say that the herald's announcement happens on page 12 whereas the actual mission abort call I when the characters realize that.

There's

That the ordinary world has been shattered happens on page 15.

Yeah, and I think, look, I think that whole thing, to be, again, fair to Snyder, does fall into the category of the debate. The debate, and I can't remember exactly what Snyder says about it, but there is this catalyst, a very clear thing, and we don't understand the full consequences of that until quite later, that there is this escalation, right, from page 11, where she asks, you know, where Matt says that the boys down there worry for us to the mission abort to the shut it down ultimately to when she's floating away I do think you can see that as this kind of debate sequence that's come as a response a bit responsibility for the catalyst because not only is she kind of reluctant to let go and she doesn't value her own life that the whole kind of her floating away kind of ends the first act because it's her decision to get a visual lock that's

This is an interesting point because I actually wanted to talk to you about where the first act break is but let's for the sake of arguing Vogler versus Snyder here, Snyder says the debate should actually be a sequence between pages 12 to 25, which that's not the case here in Gravity. I disagree.

I think it is a sequence. It's a sequence that builds from the catalyst, the arrival of the debris to the debris hitting and her floating away. That is all, to me, a sequence that's kind of even got broken into threat. You got the beginning of the sequence, the catalyst, the middle of the sequence, and it hits. And the end of the sequence is basically when she's getting a lock on the Explorer. I mean, you could probably argue that when Matt comes over and tethers herself to him. But I think for me, the moment is her getting the visual lock because it's a character choice.

You honestly think she's debating for that whole time whether she wants to survive or not? Like, the minute the debris actually hits and Sharif is hit and she's trying to get back into the shuttle, she's freaking out and yeah trying her hardest to.

Survive yeah but there's you know she's like freaking out saying no no no give me anything she they flutter up and then she starts to she swallows harshly her throat goes dry she can't breathe she can't breathe we got that sequence that I talked about where it draws attention to her breathing but then and this is quoting from the script who intellect engages and she gains a new sense of calm you know, which is basically she glimpses something and then boom, she's able to take control. I see that as a choice. You might see that as a survival reflex. I think the way it's painted in the script is it's definitely a character moment,

Whether it's a choice or force. I completely agree with you. It's just whether, to me, is her being flung into space and regaining control, is it a debate? Is it a refusal of the call? I agree with you that those three lines where she's not doing as she's being ordered, that's a refusal to the call. But as soon as her life is in danger, she wants to, you know, attend the call. She wants to live.

Yeah. And look, I mean, this is the very funny thing with Vogler is he basically says you can remix any part of the hero journey and you can remove steps if you want to. I wish I could find the page. Well, that's a useful,

Useful get out of jail free card, isn't it? Yeah. The one thing I did want to say is I think it's interesting to think about the break into act two because it could be when Matt rescues her, which is, it's interesting because this film gets away with two pieces of coincidence, I think very well. The first piece of coincidence is, you know, they've got a shower of debris coming at them, right? And then the second coincidence is she's flung off into space. And I remember because I'd seen the trailers where she gets flung into space. And then I'm in the film and she's flung into space. And it's like minute 17 or something. I'm like, holy crap, how on earth do they get her back? And then Matt just appears and rescues her.

Well, no, he's got that very super fancy device. I can't remember the name. There's a technical acronym.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying it's not credible that he does this. I'm just saying that it's not her. But to me, the act break was at where they find that Explorer has been completely destroyed on page 34. And I say this because really their goal, when Matt's got her back, even from the beginning of the debris shower, the goal has been let's get into Explorer. Right? Then she gets thrown off structure. Matt comes back and rescues her. They pick up the body of Sharif. And then they get to Explorer and they realise this is not their way home. They have to... There is a new goal, which is get to the International Space Station.

You know, I... And for me, and this is using a Vogler understanding of it, them tethered together is the beginning of the second act. That the meeting... In Vogler, you have a meeting with a mentor, then you cross the threshold, right? So again, using Star Wars, classic example, Obi-Wan meets Luke, then Luke makes the decision to join Obi-Wan in his quest, and then Obi-Wan takes them to the whole journey to Alderaan. He's driving that half of it. For me, using that same metaphor in Gravity, the meeting with the mentor is Matt Kowalski taking over as a mentor. We saw him as like a joker, then he gets very serious. He flies over, tethers himself to Ryan.

But he's already taken control as a mentor as the debris is hitting. Like he's ordering her around. He's saying, can I go and rescue her? He's in her ear the whole time saying, you know, detach, detach. I'm losing visual of you, detach. Like he's, and the film is very good in its setup to say, this guy is so relaxed out here while she's freaking out. Even before the debris has happened, she's feeling nauseous. They're getting medical updates that she's not comfortable up there and he's super comfortable okay like that.

Your mentor is well established you're kind of proving my point then so you have the refusal of the call he starts becoming the mentor he reaches her tethers her and to me he him then bringing her back is the is the crossing of the threshold I think that's because that they make such a big visual of the tethering and I also think thematically or or more archetypally The idea of the mentor being like a father figure or a mother figure, absolutely the tether becomes like an umbilical cord, you know, that they're kind of connected at that point and her journey is tied to him. And so for, I think from... But Vogler's perspective, they are crossing the threshold as they head back to the shuttle. And what's interesting about Vogler, he kind of relates these steps to the axe. You know, as I mentioned before, there's kind of like a diagram about how they line up, but it's nowhere near as prescriptive about page count as Snyder is. So, you know, Snyder does say, yeah, the breaking to two is page 25. But, you know, Vogler's just like, there's a meeting with a mentor and they cross the threshold. So, yes, you could argue that it's when they hit the Explorer and they realize they have to change their goal, or you could argue that it's them tethered together as they make their way. It's a difference of pages, and I don't think it really helps us understand the story anymore. It's that movement, that kind of escalation of action and the way these carry us together that is a useful thing to see how they've built this story.

Absolutely and that that to me raises a great point that you could argue that either of these two moments are a break from act one to act two and it doesn't matter a bit what matters is that there's two discrete sequences with a goal when she's flying off into space the goal is you know someone come and help me get in communication with Explorer get back to Explorer is the goal Matt comes rescues her they get back to Explorer then there's a new goal this screenplay is incredible at the, setting goals that the audience understands so clearly and so quickly.

And they're all related to survival.

And it's just incredible. And for me, you know, like you referenced that Shane Black analysis of Iron Man 3, who knows if they, if Jonás and Alfonso Cuarón gave a crap where they'd break into act one or act two is. They just knew that because there was this clear definable goal that these characters were rushing towards, that the audience would be there with them.

Yeah, and I think they do that visually, and I'd have to see the film again, but I reckon the first cut in the film is the beginning of the second act, and that is roughly when he rescues her, but it's definitely a continuous shot for, you know, most of the first, if not the whole first act. So, it could be a very conscious decision.

As for the first, it's the first sequence, it cuts as she's flung off into space.

Doesn't it? I thought it stayed with her.

I don't know if you remember but she gets flung off and she becomes a very tiny dot and then it cuts to this inside the helmet spinning stuff and moves in between, amazingly I think one thing we should say is for a film that was as you said so animated and such an incredible, technological advance and such an incredible cinematic experience I thought there was going to be a ton of camera direction but nowhere in the screenplay does it mention this the camera has not cut yet by page 17 you know that.

Yeah there's not very much at all through the helmet there's a few references to that so we get the sense of when they're shifting into kind of first person they make a they call it out

It almost I almost found it annoying when they would start cutting from inside the escape pod to outside the escape pod because the it was kind of necessary I I understood they're two different locations, but it was jarring to the read where I think I could have coped without even having those those slug lines interrupting it. Anyway, so we're into Act 2 and they have a new goal, which is to get to the International Space Station. So, Snyder says that in this kind of second sequence leading up to the midpoint, you need to introduce the B story. And the reason why I said character journey is a possible B story is it's really her discussion of her daughter happens in there. And it's the first time that you kind of get to know who she is and what she's going to have to overcome to get back down to earth. Yeah, I think that's... So, whether you call it a B story or just the main, that there is only one story and it's both plot and character intertwined, it's fine. I'm just saying that this element of the story is only introduced on page 38.

Yeah, and look, when I watched it, my single brain was like, wow, this felt like a studio note, this inclusion of this backstory because it feels like something that you could kind of just completely cut out of the film entirely but it does explain her motivation having listened to quite on talk about it I think it was a lot more integrated I think they just needed to find the right moment to introduce that so it is this nice moment where they're they're making their way to the ISS and there's a quiet moment where they can kind of build this backstory and we can absorb it because I think it is such an important way of understanding her character and what the film was trying to say they needed this lull for you to be able to listen to it and understand it which is probably why it stuck out like dog balls but but

Not only like to their credit and we'll get to the later part of the movie where the part that really pissed me off this this bit didn't piss me off when I was watching the film or reading it and to their credit not only do they have a clear goal. Let's get to ISS. They have two ticking clocks. They have her running out of oxygen and him running out of fuel in his jetpack thingy.

It's an MMU, a manned maneuvering unit.

Okay, thank you. I'm still going to call it a jetpack. And so, even though it's this lull where they're introducing, you know, new elements and a deliberate lull, it's a pacing lull to let us recover from what we've just seen. And they're moving towards it. There is very much these guys' lives in danger. And Matt asking about her backstory is justified because he's trying to calm her down so she stops hyperventilating.

Oh completely and I think what is interesting again using Vogler I do think this is part of the tests allies and enemies section of the story it's short in in this film a lot shorter than it is in Frozen but it is them actually becoming allies using Star Wars the test allies enemies example is the whole section when they get to Mos Eisley and they recruit Han and Chewbacca and all that stuff right it's when they start building the group that is going to win and in a way that's what they're trying to do here that they're actually bonding and becoming allies he's shifting from mentor to become an ally and there is small tests between them to do with the oxygen and them and them trying to get into the ISS with

All due respect I feel like any bit any you take out any sequence of any film that's ever been made and you could say that it would meet the definition of tests allies and enemies.

Yeah but there's a specific point no no look there's a specific point when they start recruiting allies, that they are, that, you know, Frozen, this is jumping ahead with that analysis, but that's where you meet Kristoff as a man and Olaf, you actually meet them and they become part of the band, the party band that's going to conquer this. And I'm sure Indiana Jones has similar things.

Yeah, but much more so than in Gravity where, you know, you're kind of having it both ways because you're saying the tethering was, you know, and I think you had a very excellent analogy about, you know, the umbilical cord because Cuarón has also been really open about his use of symbology of birth and that this is a resurrection and rebirth story and he, visually has a lot of birth imagery. So, I think your tether umbilical cord example is bang on, but then, you know, he's there as a mentor. And yes, there's a subtle shift here from, but I think he still is the mentor. She's not really...

Recruiting him

She needs him there's she's such a passive character even in this sequence she's freaking out and he's trying to calm him down calm her down.

Yeah I mean look I'm stretching that point but I because I actually think it's just the bit the bit that stuck at most of the meeting is the approach to the inmost cave and we kind of brushed over it in the last episode because it wasn't as appropriate to Philomena and Dallas Buyers Club but you know as I referenced it's the idea of approaching the Death Star you know in the millennium falcon for the false time when they realize that Alderaan is destroyed right in this case the inmost cave what I actually see is the inmost cave in the ordeal is what happens on the ISS right that the approach to it this whole thing leading up to the beginning of the ordeal is them coming into the ISS them having to kind of land her getting caught up in the in the parachute and it ends with well not quite ends but I think her letting go and Matt is part of it and this you know I was kind of like there's two ways you can analyze it you can either say the ordeal begins with with her letting go of Matt but I actually think if you you know I'm going to stay true to the Vogler kind of imagery the cave itself is is the ISS it's her having to go inside the cave and she is literally losing Obi-Wan outside of the cave and having to let him go and I think so

Tell me the difference in tell me the difference in Vogler terms between the inmost cave and the ordeal.

Right, so it's kind of is, as I said, it's the enemy base. It's about you're on the verge of going into the place where you're going to confront your ordeal, right? Yeah. And the ordeal is kind of the middle of the second act, is kind of what bridges the two. So you could see that the midpoint, her letting go of Matt is the midpoint in a way. Well, I mean, it absolutely is, I think. You know, it's the false peak. It happens on actually no I'm gonna I'm gonna rephrase because there's some interesting comparisons here so Snyder talks about you know all these page references are in reference to 110 page scripts this is close to 100 pages right but her letting go of Matt is page 45 right and so that's a big moment but then on page 55 you know which is the the classic Snyder midpoint is when she actually tries to contact him again, right? Come on, Matt, talk to me, talk to me, right? So it's kind of this, it's actually like a 10-page sequence. So she lets go of him and that's a huge traumatic moment and then she fights the way inside the module and then she reaches communication, but then she realizes that he really, really is dead.

To me, there are these two sequences in Vogler or two, not necessarily sequences, but two beats or parts of the story, which is Approach to the Inmost Cave and The Ordeal. And where I think this film, Gravity, suits Vogler more than it suits Snyder is that there really are two really important beats very close to each other in the middle of the film. So, her letting go of Matt, I think, is the genuine midpoint because she... Well, arguably, she doesn't start driving the story until she's lost communications with him. Because even when he detaches, he's telling her, you have to get to the Tiangong, the Chinese space station. You know, he's giving her all the instructions. You have to get inside. You're breathing CO2. You're feeling dizzy. You know, he's still in a way, she's having to physically do it. But he's still in a way driving that sequence. But it's only when she gets inside. So, there's two major beats. Matt detaching. So she's on her own for the first time and having to do things herself. And then the second one is her getting inside the International Space Station. And we were talking about Cuarón's symbology before. It's even, it's described in the big print. For a moment, Ryan simply hangs in suspension, a fly in amber, surrendering to the poetry of the planets, rotating slowly in the cabin's womb. And in the previous sentence She's been described as floating in the fetal position So she's just detached from her umbilical cord And she's climbed into a womb of safety, So, but as you said, when she loses comms with Matt, she realizes she's genuinely on her own and starts driving the action.

And it is total hero's journey taking over from the mentor page 55. She says, oh, Matt, I'm not ready for this in dialogue. Right. And then it says in a big print, maybe a third of the page down the way Matt would have done it dash, you know, this is mission specialist, Ryan Stone reporting from the ISS. And that moment totally you do get that in the on the screen that she's like I'm not ready for this but then she assumes the role of Matt and starts taking you know charge and speaks like him and it actually says something about the dialogue as much as you can say it was bland her language changes from this point forward that you actually sense the character change by the very way she talks I think that I think that's worth noting

Let's do be fair to Snyder he also says there's a midpoint happening and it's happening around this point in the film and what I like about Snyder's description of a midpoint much better than Hauge's the point of no return because for me in most stories the act one break is the point of no return that's when the story has started to the point that the protagonist can't just go back to the beginning rather than that happening at the mid the middle of the second act or the middle of the film I much prefer this idea of a false peak And you know that I did some work with an English screenwriter called Andy Cox, who he describes the midpoint as the most success that the character has produced without changing like they they keep on being the way they were at the beginning of the film and this is the closest that they get to success before the reversal starts to force change on them and here she's just been doing what she's been told fearfully right up until this point and where you said exactly as you said it I'm not ready for this then she adopts Matt's way of being She's had to change in order to succeed. And I like that. I think up until this halfway point of the film, we've got both Vogler and Snyder fitting very snugly.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, we're kind of dancing around trying to say, oh, it doesn't fit neatly into one way or another. The point is something super dramatic. A bunch of super dramatic stuff happens in the middle of this film. You know, you've got the character change. You've got the loss of the mentor. You've got a changing goal. This is a huge thing. For the moment they thought the ISS was the way home right that should be able to get oxygen then the second half kick scene we've got fire right page 55 oh and she even says what now which is exactly what the audience thinks it's like she's voicing there holy shit you know we've had all this moment and then we've got something else and it it's kind of almost a repeat of all the survival stuff but it's added with this sense that she is a little bit more determined just She hasn't completely changed, but she's becoming like Matt. She's no longer helpless.

Well, can I point out that they knew way back on page 41 that the ISS wasn't the way back to Earth. As they're approaching ISS, there's a line in dialogue from Matt Kowalski where he says, let me just get the line up. He says, Soyuz's exterior surface damage and shoot has deployed. Its use as an escape pod for re-entry to Earth is impossible.

Mm-hmm.

So, they've said that on page 41. Then they have this great sequence where they're trying to get onto the ISS. Matt detaches. She climbs in and has a major character beat. But then the next sequence in Snyder terms is described as bad guys close in. And I'd just like to say she tries to put out a fire on page 56. So, there is a fire. The what now? Then she tries to get into the Soyuz by page 57. Then she has to try and get the Soyuz away from the space station that is on fire. Then it's caught in the parachute lines and she has to try and not crash the escape pod into the ISS on page 61. Then on page 62, she has to get back out into space and unscrew, unbolt the parachute lines while the debris appears. I mean, those are four, you know, we're talking about from page 56 to 6162, six pages. There are four really defined goals. Each one, the reason there's a change in the goal, because there's been a massive escalation of the stakes.

And it's just a constant escalation. And, you know, if you see the bad guys metaphorically, otherwise, is the debris. That's kind of like the return of the big bad, you know, it's, it's, it's the arrival of the, uh, of the Nazi lieutenant or whatever it is, you know? And I absolutely, I think that's, it's just this absolute escalation. But here's the question.

So does Vogler talk about, does Vogler talk about what happens between ordeal? And seizing the sword?

Well, because I think even though you can see the ordeal as part of the midpoint, I think in the context of this story, and it's not quite the midpoint, I actually think the ordeal, I think it does encompass, you know, the loss of Matt Ryan going into the module, dealing with the fire, because I actually think the ordeal for her, you know, this is, it's meant to represent that it's kind of like the first big character challenge. It's kind of like where we think that the characters are going to die they think they're going to die you know the in star wars it's them potentially you could see it as them in the in the trash compactor but for me I think what is when I go what is the darkest fear of Ryan in this story I think it's when she's in the module and she's stuck that she has no other options I think that for me is her darkest fear and I think that's probably where the ordeal is and it is a sequence that kind of leads up into the seizing of the sword which does dovetail nicely with Snyder what Snyder was saying which is you know you've got the all is lost moment the Dark Night of the Soul and then the break into the third when the the solution is found the seizing of the sword and the reward is that moment for me I think in this story at least there is an overlap and again this is analysis not creation but there is an overlap between the ordeal and the all is lost dark night of the soul because and here's the interesting thing when do you think that the all is lost moment is

Well, I totally agree with you. It's on page 68 where there is no fuel. She's managed to survive the second debris storm. She's detached the Soyuz. She's pointing the Soyuz. She's got it working, considering she's not very good at driving these things. She's got it lined up for Tiangong, and she just wants to press a button and go.

Yeah.

And there's no fuel.

That's important. So, I'm just going to table this, but I'm going to point it out. She had to as part of this kind of like first challenge the ordeal is her working on how to use this module all right and she has to teach remember how to do it so let's just table that for the moment what is interesting here is I went yeah it's absolutely that's what when I read through I marked it as page 68 and according to Snyder it should actually be on page 75 and as we've made many points of Snyder's page numbers are usually really whacked but what is interesting because I was just like I'm going to humor him I'm going to go to page 75 and it's not exactly 75 but the moment when she's you've got we

Have said we're 10 pages short.

Yeah but when she's listening to the transmission with the baby and the boys with the uh the I can't say it any gang the transmission grows fainter and fainter and fainter and then is gone it's kind of could also be seen as the all is lost moment because that's when everything starts you know she surrenders It actually says she surrenders on page 75. She weeps. You know, you could actually see this as the, that is the all is lost moment. Because she's, not only has she lost fuel on page 68, she gets transmission, but then that's taken away and she's in absolute silence.

Yeah, I think, I think there's, there's two ways of looking at it. And I think it fits neatly, again, both into Snyder, both into Vogler. I think you can either say there is no fuel is the all is lost moment and the dark night of the soul is that entire sequence of her talking to, is it Anningang? And deciding to die. She, you know, she turns off the oxygen and deciding to die. Now, interestingly, using your kind of alternative look at this is you could say, well, her deciding to die, her she's surrendering is the all is lost and the dark night of the soul is actually her hallucinating that Ryan's come back into the escape pod because I had originally thought exactly the first way that all is lost is no fuel and then this entire sequence is Dark Night of the Soul, right? Or the ordeal in Vogler terms. But Matt appears and you feel this surge. I remember feeling it in the cinema. I was like, oh, that's such a cheap trick. I feel so ripped off, but I'm so happy that he's back. So, I had this huge swell of emotion and he arrives and he challenges her. He dramatizes the decision that she has to make. He turns all the oxygen off and says, it's really nice here, isn't it? Turning everything off and just going to sleep and never waking up.

And so, to me,

I was like, well, the Dark Night of the Soul is still going, even though he's arrived.

Oh, yeah. He's absolutely the Dark Night of the Soul. But, yeah, it's a cheap trick. But, man, it's so Hero's Journey. It's the ghost of Obi-Wan. Use the force, Luke. You know? Use the soft landing jets, Ryan. Use the soft landing jets. It's absolutely that moment.

He then says, like, he's got the two of the most on-the-nose lines. You have to start living life, Ryan. it's time to go home.

And then Ryan you have to learn to let go wait but didn't he let go of her and she couldn't do oh my god so many meaning no that's me being unfair but yes absolutely and it's funny we got a friend of the podcast Krob k-h-r-o-b from San Francisco did did send us a question okay Krob uh he did send us a question which is what beat does George Clooney's reappearance and the end of Gravity correspond to. And I think it, whatever way you want to cut it, it's the end of act two. It's, it's the lowest point is building up there. And he gives her the solution. He is like, I mean, he's like the lady in the lake handing over Excalibur, you know, you know, go and take it back.

And she sees the sword, she's seized the want to live.

Absolutely. And she's given the knowledge, right? So, and it kicks off the road back. The road back in this thing is heading towards the Chinese station, gets it all going. She's on the road back. She's determined. So, you've got the cool action sequence and then it leads to her coming into the Chinese module. And this is what I was saying about noticing it. Because one of the Vogler ideas is the first ordeal teaches you, doesn't always, can give the characters what they need to know to survive their second big challenge, right? Which is, in this case, how to use the Chinese module. And I just thought that was an interesting parallel. You know, whether it was deliberate or not, it makes sense within the rules of this world. And then the road back is, you know, you've got the fiery return to Earth. And then she lands in water. And that's when we've got resurrection. You know, she is sucked down. you know and and resurrection is the last big big big challenge right you know when there's one last trick up the sleeve you've lulled the audience into a false sense of security and there's something else you know in aliens it's the arrive of the queen alien on the ship in here it's her landing in the water but then sinking oh my god you know she's fighting so hard in zero gravity to get back to earth and now gravity is the very thing that could potentially kill her you know and then she managed to get out of there opens up escapes and then pops up through water and you know water is such a symbol of fertility and rebirth and baptism and all that stuff it is an absolute resurrection moment you know and the return with the elixir is her getting on land

Oh sorry yeah keep going.

Determined and it even says I mean it says she's punched drunk at the end it's I think the ending image, you know, the low angle, wide angle shot, she begins to walk on planet Earth laughing. She has found her will to live, you know, and I think that is the elixir.

Where I will agree with you is I think, first of all, this film fits, I think it fits Snyder and Vogler pretty accurately. I think our discussions have shown that it passes through all these beats almost as they say they should. So, it's a very archetypal story. where I think Vogler is a better fit for this story is just because he is so we said this last week with Philomena and Dallas Buyers Club we were noticing it in terms of how it didn't fit those films but that he's so much more detailed about what happens from the end of Act 2 through to the end of Act 3 whereas Snyder is limited to I mean so finale Always Lost, Dark Night of the Soul, Break into Three, Finale.

And in Snyder, the finale is 25 pages. And that's your advice, Finale. It's like progress.

And not only that- Finish it. Yeah, exactly. It's a long act three. It's a long sequence.

And what's interesting, and it's worth pointing out with Vogler, is he is giving his interpretation of Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces. His is not the only one out there, right? And I'll put some links into the show notes of some of the other interpretations. What is interesting is The Hero with a Thousand Faces has even more beats for the third act. So, there's the refusal of the return as an idea you can use, that the character decides they want to stay in the extraordinary world and don't want to return home. And then they've got a crossing of the threshold back. So, yeah, I mean, the hero's journey definitely, because it's so much more about, I guess, you know, in that archetypal sense, it's returning with the elixir to your community, bringing something back to your community. Yeah. That I think it actually has a lot more to say about the third act.

The other reason why I think this fits, and Snyder alludes to it by saying that the break into the Act 3 is the discovering of the solution, which could be interpreted as being similar to Seizing the Sword in Vogler. But I like Vogler's term of a reward, and I don't think all films fit this. We found that, for example, last week, we found that Philomena did fit it. She was rewarded before she went into the final sequence. but Dallas Buyers Club, we didn't feel that the reward happened on the second to last page of the entire film. And so a lot of films choose to reward their protagonist after the climax, whereas other films choose to reward their protagonist as the break into Act 3, that they need their reward to survive the final sequences of the film.

And I think the reward is handled in a more classic, Vogler way in Frozen. So I'm just going to use this to very inelegantly change the topic to Frozen. And I'm going to start with a leading question, which is, who do you think was the protagonist?

Damn it, you got in first. I have that question written down to ask you. I do very much think that Anna is the protagonist of the film, but I don't think that Elsa is the antagonist.

Interesting interpretation. I was going to argue that Elsa is the one that has the biggest character journey and Anna, she's the hero, but she changes the least. They give her a very subtle change. Which is the idea of her, you know, learning about what real love is, but only romantic love. And that's the B story, you know, that's the change. Because otherwise she is described in the script as fearless. And one of the few ways it breaks with Vogler is that she isn't even reluctant in terms of rescuing her sister.

Can I say that the way that I've always used the definition of who a protagonist is, is the person whose decisions drive the story. And it usually is the person who undergoes the largest change. But I think you and I are talking about doing an entire podcast dedicated to films where the protagonist doesn't have the largest arc, where there's a main character who's separate from the protagonist. And I think this is perhaps one of those examples.

Look, I don't think it's a big deal because for me, the film really did work. And I think often stories can have a change, but it's not necessarily the main character who changes, you know, the example, and we'll deal with it more in that episode, is Die Hard. It's not John McClane that changes, it's his wife, you know, but there is still a change relative to that character. And I think this is a good example, because I think Frozen is even more than Gravity, a Vogler the hero's journey. And I think it fits the hero's journey much better than it does fit Snyder, you know?

Ooh, all right. By the way, let me just put my cards on the table. I'm not a fan of Snyder or Save the Cat. I just felt that this film diverted more from those archetypal story beats than Gravity.

That's interesting because I thought, yeah, as I said, I think it adheres to the hero's journey more. And I mean, maybe I was looking for it because the thesis coming in was, would these bigger tentpole films more closely adhere to the guru formulas? Because they are meant to reach to a wider audience. And as we said, they're not biopics. So they have the potential for that more constructed third act. But it's the third act that I think this departs the most with from Snyder. You know, did you want, should we start from the beginning? Did you want to summarize Frozen for us, Chas?

Okay. Frozen is a retelling of the classic story of the Snow Queen, but it's only very loosely connected to that old tale. It's about two sisters, one of whom has special powers to be able to manipulate ice. And the sisters are princesses of a kingdom. And when the Snow Queen, When Elsa, the sister with the magic powers, is made queen, the stress of it makes her freak out and she freezes the entire kingdom accidentally. And then it's about following Anna to try and get her sister to unfreeze the kingdom.

Okay. Okay.

So, you said it yourself that there's such a super clear statement of the theme in the film that fear will be your enemy. where the troll grandpappy troll says it to Elsa.

Yeah it helps that we have a podcast which we'll also link to where Jennifer Lee actually says that's the theme because I out of interest I went to page five and was like hmm wonder if I could see a Snyder theme statement of theme and in a way there is and again this is stretching but it shows you that how does show you how the theme is manifested dramatically which is the king so the opening kind of epilogue is elsa accidentally freezing her sister right and the king and the queen walk in and the king says elsa what have you done this is getting out of hand and the queen is like anna you know she's ice cold so in a way that scene is about the parents fear you know it's not a statement of the theme in terms of verbally, but absolutely is a dramatisation of the thing. And that's the whole setup.

Yeah, what plays out there is a miniature play out of the entire plot of the film. So, let's look at the differences. And I think I agree with you here, which is...

Do you think that's the catalyst to the story?

Is Elsa freezing Anna?

You could, but I think a clearer catalyst is the coronation day. There's two reasons for this. One, it does actually fall on page 12. And two, it's a time jump and the world is changing. So, what happens previous to this page 12 is after Elsa nearly killed her sister, she has to hide away, not use her powers, and the parents shut the doors, and then the parents die. But then this ultimately leads to the coronation day where they have to let people in Elsa has to come out in the open right so for me it's a catalyst because it's a you know it's kind of like the coincidence that forces the chain of events to happen you know

You said that you didn't feel there was a debate I feel that there was if you're looking at Elsa's character and it could be interesting to argue that this film is actually two two protagonists because the reason why we're even having this discussion is Elsa is such a well-drawn character and that she has entire sequences and scenes and moments all to herself and as you said she arguably has a bigger character change than Anna but she does debate, you know, she refuses her powers. She's doing what her parents told her to, which is to try and hold them, try and control them. She's got, you know, a song about it. Whereas the, and we can talk about whether you think where the act, the first, the break into act two is, but then when she freezes the kingdom, she sings a song about letting all that go, and just embracing being her. So, it's kind of throwing off of the debate.

Yeah look and that's and that ties to who's who's the caller to venture to you know if you're using the Vogler thing I mean obviously on the one hand the call to the adventure is you could see it as elsa running off and that's the call to venture to anna she doesn't refuse it she's just like I've got to go get my sister back she's not going to hurt me whereas elsa is a little bit more conflicted she accidentally freezes things and then that ultimately leads to those consequences So, I do think this is something that's different. And it should also point out, because I actually think this is quite a long first act, because I think pretty clearly the first act ends as soon as Anna sets off after Elsa. Because that is the leaving of the ordinary world, you know, it's crossing the thresholds. And it's like the call of, I mean, you know, the goal is clearly established. I'm going to save my sister and she's going to end this winter. Right. But that happens on page 36. So it's quite a long first act. That's absolutely awesome. I, you know, I love this movie and it helped, you know, it's got the musical numbers that do so much of that. But I also think it's because it is establishing two characters. So it's building out Anna, right. And you've got the song about love, love being an open door, which is important in terms of setting up Hans and the big what will become the b story which is you know and is Understanding of romantic love but it's also sets up the villains and you know it's all this setup that they're doing that that is part of the reason I think it leads to a first act plus dealing with Elsa's you know power and trying to make us sympathetic to herds to her you know you've got the confrontation what did I ever do to you why do you shut the world out what are you so afraid of all that stuff all happens on page 30 and it's got to lead into that climax so yeah that's probably the debate in that it is a long sequence the opening of the doors to the kingdom leading to Elsa running away and then Anna following after her so

I would completely agree with you that it's a long act but I you just to play devil's advocate here you could argue that the act break isn't at page 36 it's at page 32 where Elsa reveals her powers and runs across the fjord on page 33 because she's leaving into a new world where she's running up the mountain and she freezes the kingdom.

But yeah I mean it shows you how complicated that this is just this subtle way that they've changed the role of the villain kind of challenges these conceptions of of structure but there's

There really isn't a villain villain until for me the third act of the entire film yeah.

Because they have to introduce one and that's what's very clever it's it's it's kind of a plant planted in there to kind of take over. What did you think is the B story?

I like your interpretation that the B story is Anna learning about the truth about love. Learning, well, I've got to steal from Jennifer Lee here. She says, Elsa needs to learn how to not be fearful. And Anna is like the opposite of that. She's the embodiment of love. And she loves too much, too easily, too quickly. So, yeah, she learns, I guess, how to love sensibly, perhaps.

Yeah I mean to me that the yeah the b stories is the romance for that reason I mean it is you know we've talked about before it is the classic b story is is the romance and the love story and it builds into what we think you know sometimes the a story and the b story combine in the third act you know it's the classic when two cases become one one case you know um kiss kiss bang bang and it's usually the same with the love story and and this film obviously subverts it quite cleverly what is also interesting is I think this you know you've been asking for what a good example of tests allies and enemies is as a sequence and I think this film is what provides it because it is and a recruiting she meets Kristoff she meets Sven she meets Olaf and you know I bet they're a different test there's them beating the walls there's them climbing the mountains there's them ultimately walking over the glass bridge to come into what is what will become the inmost cave which is Elsa's palace and I think that stuff is super clear and

To to be fair to Snyder.

All of

That stuff would have been in the trailer for the film so you know fun and games promise of the premise all that kind of stuff.

Yeah I mean Olaf is a huge part but okay so Yeah, I think this is my note. Promise of the premise is Olaf, I guess. That's what I really mean.

Yeah. And, but the let it go and the creation of the ice castle.

Yeah, yes. And that's interesting that we get that whole sequence in there. And I guess that's the enemies moment of Vogler. That's where we get to spend more time with the enemies. And we're going, oh my God, you know, she's letting go. She's becoming a villain. And then this leads us into the midpoint, which is the confrontation with Elsa, right? And that, you know, it's a good example of a midpoint as well, because it's what we thought was the goal of stop Elsa, become something else, which is, you know, save Anna. It's that, it is that classic shift. It's a false, it's both the false peak, the raising of the stakes, because now Anna's life is at stake. And she also didn't think her sister could hurt her, and she's wrong. She did, accidentally or otherwise. So I think that is a really good example of the midpoint. And it is a good example of the ordeal that and his biggest fear was that her sister even though she actually says my sister would never hurt me and her sister has so it is kind of her confronting that fear right

And it's also her her being you know to refer back to that andy cox kind of point of view it's as successful as she gets because you know she she arrives in the castle and Elsa's happy to see her and they you know they they have a talk and that's exactly the way Anna planned it I'm going to talk to her and she's going to unfreeze the kingdom and everyone's going to live happily ever after and for that's as successful as she gets adhering to her plan, and then it you know it falls out from underneath her no.

I was just going to ask when it actually happens because I actually it's actually kind of a late midpoint I'm just looking through

The Page 70. Page 70.

There you go.

But that's because all of these points are kind of subtly off because I think the first act is... And Jennifer's said this in all the podcasts. It's a large third act. It's five to ten pages longer than normal because of the sheer quantity of storytelling that they get in there.

And I'm sure being a musical and transcribing the lyrics is going to shift all the rhythms of the on-the-page timing because it definitely felt like a midpoint to me when I saw it.

It's interesting that you say that Anna being hit in the heart, the ticking clock of that doesn't start for me until that's the driver of the break from Act 2 to Act 3 because even though Anna is struck in the heart and her heart is freezing, they don't find out what that means for the characters for quite a few pages.

Yeah.

Page 87, she's told that she will freeze unless thawed by an act of true love.

That's what makes this midpoint so cool. One, there's dramatic irony. Yeah, you have the character change, you have a change of the goal, plus they're planting the bomb under the table for the audience of, oh my God, her heart's frozen. And we know that what that means. And Kristoff knows what that means when he discovers it. And he's like, I've got to take you to meet some people. They'll know what to do. Right. So that, I guess, leads in to my question about bad guys close in and specifically how that then builds into the all is lost moment. Bad guys close in, I guess, is fairly clear. It's the Duke sending his men to go and capture Elsa. And that in a weird way is also setting up Hans. In hindsight, you can see. That he's part of that sequence because there was that moment when he he comes in he's like oh god he's put Elsa in chains I'm not sure I like this guy anymore you know and it is the bad guys closing in but they're the bad guys closing in on Elsa I thought that was what was interesting as else I mean you've got Elsa with the the giant

Snowman chasing chasing them off the cliff I think that's you know a bad guys close in sequence.

Yeah but he's he's not quite as villainous, because I think they describe him as like, he's meant to be like a bouncer. Yeah, he tosses them down the steps and he says, you've got to leave. There's some little bits and pieces.

They jump off a 200-foot cliff. Right. I think for a kid's film, that's pretty menacing.

Yeah, okay. And that, I think, the jumping off the cliff happens on page 74? It happens on what Snyder says should be the all is lost moment. So, where do you think the all is lost moment is?

I had it as Elsa is like there's two that this is could almost be argued to be a dual protagonist film it's on page 87 Anna is told that her heart will freeze unless thawed by an act of true love and on page 90 Elsa is knocked out by the chandelier so for me they're I mean those could arguably be breaks into act 3 but the true all these beats I think are reversed I think the all is lost moment and the Dark Night of the Soul happen within act 3 of this film, And The All Is Lost is within three pages, Hans reveals he's a psychopath and Anna is dying in her room and is marching down to Elsa in the dungeon to kill her.

Yeah, look, I think that's what makes this film more suitable to Vogler. Because I think your analysis is correct. Because you look at it and you go, wow, it is quite late. But it feels more like the beginning of the third act than the end of the second. If you look at the Vogler with the idea of the ordeal the ordeal kind of does cover everything from the confrontation to of with Elsa right until pretty much the trolls and her realizing but it doesn't feel that dark but you know there is the seizing of the sword and the reward and you know this is kind of perhaps stretching the analysis but the reward is that she actually gets a solution to her her problem which is not the problem of elsa but her problem which is that true love can increase a broken heart and that is kind of the reward and then the road back is in the journey leading to Arendelle to be with Hans right

And I feel like you're stretching I mean it's certainly to me that fits more into the break into three because the solution to the protagonist problem is found there's more of a Snyder a fit for Snyder's break than Vogler's but I do have a question for you you know Snyder's got the sequence called bad guys close in that's between the midpoint and the all is lost and Dark Night of the Soul. And we're kind of seeing that fitting here. And when you're discussing Vogler, you're discussing kind of the midpoint as the ordeal as well as the aftermath of the midpoint resulting in the escalation of the stakes. Is that, is my understanding correct?

Yeah, look, that's how I interpret it because I think the ordeal while it encompasses the midpoint, right, it also leads to the reward. And I do kind of see them as kind of the two sequences in the second half of the second act. The ordeal was one sequence that is both the beginning of the midpoint, dealing with the consequences with that, and then the reward as well. Now, to be fair to Vogler, while he does show some overlap with the act breaks, he doesn't explicitly talk about act breaks as much as others so yeah the road back is them heading they're getting to deal with the consequences of of kind of like the dark forces that have been unleashed right so it is them you know it's a chase sequence and stuff like that can happen in the road back right and there is a very

But is that in act two or in act three because I think a lot of films have a very clear either one or two sequences between a midpoint reversal and the kind of sequence where all is lost and the the character is put through you know call it Dark Night of the Soul call it whatever you want is that sequence somewhere in the Vogler is there an equivalent to that.

Not the all is lost moment that's kind of that's what I'm saying I think it's kind of company accompanied with the ordeal and the reward because

That means or the ordeal is basically almost a 30-page thing.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is me making it stretch the analysis because I do think there's some films where that reward that ends the, in terms of Vogler's diagram, the reward does end the second act, right? They've got the information on how to conquer it.

I mean, you're right to an extent in that they learn what it is that they need to save Anna, right? And conveniently, it's also what's needed to save Elsa and to save the kingdom. And arguably, Vogler has... Because for me, the reward here and the seizing of the sword happens, like, at the end of the film when, you know, that... Sorry, I'm just saying that these beats where they are rewarded for everything happens after the climax. Unlike Gravity, unlike Philomena, these guys get what they deserve after the climax of the film. Whereas in this film, in Frozen, they're given the information that they need to kick off the act three. But that's it.

But you see I think for me this covers is resurrection I absolutely think the third act is about the resurrection of Anna she dies you know that's the it's absolutely drawn out but her death right ultimately leads to her resurrection and the return with the elixir is that Elsa is given the elixir by Anna in that she understands that her sister truly does love her and by understanding that love she's able to free the kingdom of snow you know of the winter and then she gains control of her powers because her fear is replaced by love and that is the elixir that that anna gives to her to give gives to the community right and I just think that the resurrection there is obviously a very specific moment of resurrection when she's you know hands the sword is coming down and she turns to stone she is dead and she saves saves her sister with an act of true love but I think that whole road back and resurrection does compass the third act it's just that there's what makes it difficult with a Snyder is the Snyder has shifted the dark Night of the Soul you know it's the end of the second act and this story it's so nice beginning of the third act

Yeah absolutely I definitely agree with that, But I feel that Vogler's got kind of two bites of the cherry that, as you said, he himself says you can skip steps, right? And still adhere to his analysis of story. But I feel that in terms of all stories generally, he's got two bites of the cherry because he offers a reward at the end of Act 2 and then a return with the elixir at the end of Act 3.

But, you know, I'm just going to, because it's still the hero's journey example. In Star Wars he he's rescued Princess Leia that's the reward they leave the Death Star with Princess Leia which is kind of what they set out to do but that is not the the great moment of triumph is then when he destroys the Death Star right but that's not what he set out to do he set out to rescue the princess so absolutely that's you know got the got the two bites of the cherry

Yeah I'm not saying that I'm not saying I'm not saying that there aren't films that that don't fit this to a tee I'm saying I don't feel that Frozen does I don't feel that that there is a reward at the end of of act two that's driving this I think it's more of a of a punishment if anything it's the the start of the ticking clock that she's going to freeze is the knowledge of how to to fix it but they they they misinterpret the knowledge yeah they think I.

Don't understand am I rejecting the idea that their knowledge of how to defeat the it's it's the the stolen plans the Death Star you know it's there is a reward they know how to defeat it they still have to do it but they know what they have to do you know

Yeah I think what I think I'm getting hung up on the term reward because I think seizing the sword yes she's got a sword she knows that true love is the answer although the the act of true love she doesn't know what it is and just does it instinctively. So, in the same way, she's always had the key as well because she's always had that instinctive, over loving nature and you know it's just such a well set up end where Kristoff is trying to find her to kiss her Hans is trying to find Elsa to kill her and I had no idea how that was going to play out well I did I thought it was going to play out in the traditional Disney way that Kristoff was going to kiss Anna and Anna was going to be fine and then Anna was going to denounce Hans or whatever and save her sister and then her sister was going to unfreeze the kingdom and they were So clever by, Subverting All those expectations Of traditional Disney films.

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And look, as much as we're arguing over the details of Ogla, and by no means should it be a formula for creation, but what is interesting is that idea of the road back and resurrection, and as I said, there's even more detail on the other hero's journey stuff, so much more useful in helping come up with these ideas than finale. Because what is finale? Oh, absolutely. It's not going to guide you into what they come up with. Like that moment when you're like, she's sacrificing herself and you're balling up, that's you know huge and it comes from the idea of resurrection it is it is a very and look resurrection myths are in lots of different yeah resurrection myths are in lots of different myths resurrection stories and you know and they are tapping into that and they found a beautiful way of doing it that was surprised you know was it surprising but

Inevitable I guess what I'm and we've said it already this podcast as well as in the last one I think Vogler provides so much more guidance for act three I think he provides I don't think any of Hauge or Snyder or Vogler give very good guidance on how to get through act two at all and I think these two scripts well all four scripts that we've looked at in these two episodes have had amazing drivers to get through their story and they're so clever with how they do it and the only reason they meet any of these kind of guru formulas is because those guru formulas are so kind of empty in in the second act but to to be fair in this film I think the second act fits Snyder slightly closer than Vogler because you know like I I think that's what I was pushing you on before is that your understanding of the ordeal spans almost 30 pages of this script.

Yeah, look, I think this script, the balance is interesting because you could argue under Snyder, if you do want to completely cling on to the Dark Night of the Soul and all is lost, when Anna is dying and Hans rejects her, kind of happens on page 106, in which case it's a pretty short third act. It's like ultimately like five or six pages.

Look, I'm just saying that all is lost and the Dark Night of the Soul is still there. They just, the break into act three happens beforehand. And so, yeah, look, I think one thing that we can definitely say is that both Gravity and Frozen, as the two largest box office original stories... We deliberately excluded things like Iron Man 3 because we couldn't attribute their box office to just what was in the story. That's why we searched for original properties. So these are the two highest grossing original properties and they by far cleave to these story archetypes much more closely than the character-driven dramas that were populating the Academy Award nominations.

Although, as we've said time and again, it means they're good tools for analysis, not necessarily good tools for creation, though they help you ask good questions, you know. Dark Night of the Soul, I think, is a great question to ask of yourself and your characters, you know. What is the all is lost moment for your character? What is the Dark Night of their soul? I think, you know, there's stuff that I use. And I've, you know, worked on features where we actually talk about that. Like, this is not stuff that is just, it stays in books. people don't necessarily adhere to the formula but they do define the way that we talk about screenwriting and the questions that we ask in screenwriting

Do you have you I was actually struggling to think of a film that doesn't have a dark night of the soul and the only examples I could come up with are the Roger Moore James Bond specifically the Roger Moore James Bonds because at no point in any of those films even when Roger Moore was in Moonraker in a he's in a pool and he's, you know, getting strangled by a python, you are under never any doubt that he's going to prevail.

I mean, the Bond movie is their own kind of thing. You know, they defy analysis.

But no, I just think it's hard to find, you know, these archetypes exist for a reason. I think it's hard to find a film where a character is not pushed to the point where everything is lost and that they are confronting themselves as a result of having lost everything.

For me, thinking about it rather than about it being formulas, it's about rhythm, you know, peaks and troughs. Or again, to come back to Shane Black, you know, he says it's about set off payoff and reversals and the thing is the Dark Night of the Soul you know it's like music it's like the quiet bit so you can build up at the end of the song and build to the climax but if the climax won't seem so big if the points before it aren't soft if you want to have that kind of peak and trough structure and there are films that I don't think do follow this I mean you know I'd have to I'd have to undergo Irréversible again, but I would suspect that that doesn't have a dark night of the soul because it's not that kind of film. So, what have you

Learnt from conducting this exercise on Frozen and Gravity?

Look, I think what's interesting is the way that they kind of weave between using those archetypal structures that are trying to tell more archetypal stories. I think particularly Gravity did set themselves out with the goal of trying to tell something that was both symbolic. So, the idea that they were using stuff that was more mythological in terms of structure, whether consciously or not, is not surprising. But I like the fact that they seemed to borrow what was useful for those stories. But never at one point did you feel, did I feel like they were forcing the structures onto the stories that they were making.

Can I venture, I think the biggest thing that I've learned from, and this is not just from these two films, it's from all four films, is that I think all these story beats are here. But I think what is actually an unhelpful idea and concept is that there is three acts.

Really?

Yeah, I find, yes, there is a beginning and there is a middle and an end. And all of these four films adhere very strongly to a first act and they break from a first act into a second act. But I find all these four films, it's not actually been a useful exercise to ask when do they break from a second act into a third act. And yes, sure, there's a road back So they leave the extraordinary world And there might be a slight use in saying Alright, now there's going to be a change in location, And that's useful, but for me, it's much more useful to think of it in terms of, all right, there's an all is lost, there's a Dark Night of the Soul, and then there's a seizing the sword and a reward, and we just plunge towards the climax of the film from there. I find the idea of arbitrarily deciding that there's a second act and a third act not helpful and I think that a lot of these films might have arguably four or five acts you know back in, Shakespeare's view because of the reversals and the positioning of the sequences that they have.

Not next episode but let a point it'd be good to look at sequence structure maybe even very quickly look back on our favorite scripts from these four to see if they actually more closely use sequences because my gut feeling is that they do a lot more clearly broken down in sequences and that those kinds of movements are more useful than this kind of strict balancing of the third acts because I think following on from that it's this idea that the you know the first act's 25 percent the third act's 25 and the second act is 50 because as you can see this stuff doesn't closely align on the page suspect that it would be interesting to look at the final films but that's also because as much as the one minute a page thing is a rule it's also a rule of thumb you know so is there anything that you're going to find useful from this and what you're working on at the moment I

I do think that the ignoring what the second and third act that that idea is going to be really helpful for my film because I don't think I adhere to it very clearly I've just finished the first draft and I've sent it out for feedback and the feedback that I'm getting back is the last 15 to 20 pages are just bang on. The people are rushing through them and they're so excited. And I've obviously got to work on my first act and second act because it's 140 pages. Yeah. Which you should be reading at some point, right, Stu?

Yes.

And you? What are you working on? I'm working on something.

That's actually doing my head in a little bit because it's unusual. What started off as like a short film became a 30-page short film script. I'm like, what the hell am I thinking about doing with 30 pages? So we've actually decided to make it three 10 minutes as a way of also kind of then playing with episodic structure. And that's what's really interesting is is you know all these guru stuff it's all about feature films yet you know the the some of the most interesting narrative stuff is happening in in television and limited event series and stuff like that and they really challenge those the distinctions you know house of cards what is the difference between it why don't we just say it like the decalogue as a as a 10-hour movie and so for me what I'm trying to do with this like what I was tempted to do is kind of refine the 10-minute episodes so there are each episode has got like a midpoint and maybe a first act and a and a and a third act and at the same time it's also three episodes it's deliberately beginning middle and end so I'm no I'm just going to follow the instinct of does this is this compelling and is this work because getting into the microstructure and the macro structure of something that is episodic and only 30 pages I mean at what point is it just becoming noise? You know?

Yeah.

What's Snyder going to tell me? Oh, my catalyst happens on page 12 and then I introduce my B story on page 30, which is the last page.

Yeah.

But, you know, I think sequences and goals are always a good way of thinking of things.

Well, I think you and I, we came into this exercise with a certain amount of skepticism and it feels like... I've got more respect for these gurus, actually, than I had before we did this exercise. Yeah, right. I say more respect for them. I still, I have zero respect for people who say that they have to be adhered to like glue, because we found enough deviations from these in these four very successful films to show that these are not formulas for success. They are guidelines suggestions tools but not formulas we've started out our first two episodes talking about macro structure hoping to not really talk about it in too much detail ever again hopefully you know to get this out the way so that we can look into much closer elements of screenwriting and seeing how they work so I'm more I'm glad that we did this exercise but I'm also very glad to be leaving it behind the.

Next episode is looking at unlikable but compelling protagonists and we're looking at specifically them in comedy and then we'll do a follow-up episode looking at them in drama so at this stage if you want to go and hunt down the scripts we're going to be looking at Hot Fuzz as good as it gets and the classic Groundhog Day but we're only going to be looking at the first 20 pages. Our theory is that we will find the protagonist compelling by page 20. We'll see if that's the case.

Well, I guess we have to.

I don't know.

I can't think of a film, a successful film, where the audience is not compelled to keep watching within the first 20 minutes.

Ah, but that's the interesting question. Is it compelled to keep watching or is it I find the main character compelling?

Yeah, it could. Okay. Well, thanks a lot for the lovely podcast.

If you're interested in following us on Twitter, you can follow me at Stu Willis. That's Stu with a U, S-T-U. Willis W-I-L-L-I-S And Chas is at Chas Fisher

I'm Chas F. Fisher Some bastard had Chas Fisher already.

And of course you can find this episode And the show notes on www.draft-zero.com Hyphen as in the symbol Not hyphen as in the word Hey Oh my god I mean it's You know everyone knows the site now but slash dot dot org when that first started and you're like no it's slash the word sla like the guitar player dot dot then it's the symbol so fair

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Thanks chas be one kenobi no worries bye mate see ya