Dz-52: Antagonists! (Part 4) – Vs Systems

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Intro: Vs Systems

Stu Willis:
[0:00] Chas Facebook in 2002 Mark Zuckerberg we watch this film I didn’t think it was a dystopia right he’s probably like,
that’s a pretty good idea.

[0:21] And I’m Stu Willis.

Chas Fisher:
[0:22] And welcome to draught zero podcast where to Aussie filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work.

Stu Willis:
[0:28] And on today’s episode.

Chas Fisher:
[0:30] Today’s part.

Stu Willis:
[0:31] Part part episode episode part whatever it is part 4 of our epic series,
antagonists we going to be talking about the world of this system which is something we nfl’s have been debating what to call it so they’ve been saying to see who ultimately wins when this is released.
We want it we looking I’ll get the films first which is we looking at Minority Report mudbound lobster and I’m I really do want to talk about doing the Planet of the Apes
hopefully you’ve got time to do for and I think we we pick a topic because and we left it for last because these kinds of assistance vs well vs Society,
Kinda kinda have the antagonist forced to manifested in multiple ways Siri before we started recording with that the vs humans vs Self
and those kinds of nature elements of the previous topics would come to bear in this app seen in these films,
but I think I think we probably in doing it has found,
the best other ways that the antagonist and Fosters or yes they take Mystic Force is too precious the obstacles the bushes the pull of the neighbour with the challenges Memento manifesting me stories.

Chas Fisher:
[1:45] I think I think these stories,
the reason why right at the very beginning before we even shows the homework or really figured out what we meant by V system more vs world the reason why I wanted to do it is that there are clearly films out there where.
You can say that the antagonist is in the case of mudbound racism now racism in that film is dramatised through various different,
antagonistic forces and that’s why we’ve left it till last and I think the reason why I was going to start with Minority Report is it’s a real trope of,
science fiction as a genre which pits the protagonist against the system that is currently the dominant system of the world,
in which the protagonist is living and it and it’s that characters mission to overthrow,
the double the rules the system.

Stu Willis:
[2:47] It’s always them to overrule it but often,
I would say there’s Brawley speaking of which when already Port report is an example of the film there is a character who is part of the system
when’s the truth about the system and then either in any place with a choice the pressures of that they are either either so come to the system.
Call they escape the system or they overthrow it’s over nothing 1984 as an example of someone who ultimately the comes to the system of Big Brother you know and man,
Brave New World it’s it’s no mistake that we’re mentioning dystopias in your name a Minority Report,
lobster and I’ll even say mudbound a dystopian yes
my dad is historical drama but he this is an instant message bye bye the bye but yeah there’s that idea that science Fitbit genres have a setting in the may have kind narrative Tropes Nest sending troops and I think there is an element
the system of a society stories that is attached to science fiction is also true of period films you know.

Chas Fisher:
[3:52] You’ve often pointed out to me that Ridley Scott is suited to doing both science fiction and period dramas like gladiator and kingdom of heaven because.

Stu Willis:
[4:03] He just makes science fiction that is.

Chas Fisher:
[4:06] And the point of setting a film in a period is it because to me whether it’s a future setting or,
period setting is it gives the audience a measure of Distance actually look at something in a new light later bye bye singer film as powerful as mudbound it allows us to reassess racism within our own,
contemporary life.

Stu Willis:
[4:29] I give that to use the term aesthetic distance to just be appropriate given the lobster in the whole thing is very,
credibly brechtian with it’s distance thing tactics,
I don’t know if I have much to say in terms of lead up to this cos that kind of my thesis that ultimately in all these stories that we are looking at,
the pressures be the sequence of Antarctic forces are orchestrating in such a way.
Push the character,
little bit the main character but we’re following weather for your prac protagonist or just a point of your character or whatever
doesn’t matter today which at Alton we facing a choice about the system itself anything in any of these films,
Mike it’s not that it’s specifically like I am going to Burns I’m in a block the Death Star kind of I’m going to tear down the system but it’s more do they say come to the system do they find a way to escape it or do they attempt to overthrow it.

Chas Fisher:
[5:31] I think you articulated it well with those three questions I was just going to say,
I think there’s a we going to find a big difference in the films like Minority Report where the protagonist is aware that the world is the antagonist,
and in movies like mudbound the characters are aware that racism isn’t antagonistic for us but they’re not trying none of the characters have the objective of ending racism.
And so that leads to a different kind of movie as a result of weather,
the the this goes back to what we were talking about in part 3 vs nature how defeatable is the antagonistic Force.

Stu Willis:
[6:19] Can you overcome can you actually negotiate with the system can you change the system but I think we’ve got lots. I’m in a say that I don’t think the correct question is will he can hear over through the system but I think the weather will submit to it or escape to it.

Chas Fisher:
[6:34] I’ll find a way to make it work for him.

Stu Willis:
[6:36] Dawn of the Planet of the Apes and what does why I want to do it because I’ve got a very particular reader of the Dawn of the Planet Apes in the context of this that I think.
Is ultimately the kind of a pessimistic version of this and I think there is no better way to start the Minority Report because it’s so

Minority Report

[6:55] beautiful in that way.

[6:56] Future can be seen running over images,
prettiest we see what they say 6 years is nothing wrong with the system it is perfect I will be stopped while we get any private,
we are ready to visuals with broken elbow,
systems can be wrong,
can I trouble you have a wine in my pocket into the motor don’t run
Chas mate.

Chas Fisher:
[7:35] So Minority Report follows at John anderton played by Tom Cruise and it said that the premise of the film it’s that it’s set in a particular City,
where they have.

Stu Willis:
[7:49] Washington isn’t it.

Chas Fisher:
[7:50] I think you may be right I had forgotten which particular City bet that feels right it’s set in a particular City where they’ve developed a technology to be able to,
predict murders before they happen and so it’s called pre-crime so they arrest people before they’ve even committed,
the crime and the premise is that a John anderton.

Stu Willis:
[8:15] Who is the chief of pre time which is important is the chief.

Chas Fisher:
[8:17] Yeah gets a Sears at the system shows him murdering someone he goes on the run and it’s the remainder pre-crime a hunting after him.

Stu Willis:
[8:32] So this is Matt it’s so pathetic and so beautiful so you the Believer The Complete believer in the system.

Chas Fisher:
[8:40] The Enforcer.

Stu Willis:
[8:42] Yeah isn’t in for so who is an absolute convert convert to the system chief of prayer time has
has to be all these wooden balls come out for the pre cod switch show that he is about to commit murder so he’s a very fundamental well you and this is something I’m actually going to be talking about in all four episodes and but we should have mentioned in the beginning introduction is review,
challenged because either he is a murderer and pre-crime work,
or he’s not a murderer and pre time is wrong that is this that is kind of the question in the film frames at steamatic question about free Will and his great speech.

[9:21] Please make it ourselves we are resting individuals with broken the law but they will the commission of the crime itself is absolute metaphysics the pre can’t see the future and they’re never wrong but it’s not the future if you stop.
It’s not a fundamental Paradox it about determination which happens all the time.
Education because it was going to fall you said you didn’t fall you card.
Effective preventive mapping doesn’t change the fact it was going there.

Stu Willis:
[9:54] That kind of the framing device but there’s a couple of things that I think it has of antagonistic forces that you can take away from this lemon I don’t wanna mess Italy borrow any in particular,
sing typing performance office is beautifully executed is actually one of my favourite Spielberg’s.
Which is that there’s a few aspects to it which is there is the Jonathan is the Believer who believe in the system is challenged but there are the enforcers,
of the system they’re out to get him but then in all these for films you will see that there are characters we’re still part of the system that is why it’s a system right there they are believe is that they haven’t they haven’t seen the truth of the system scores,

Chas Fisher:
[10:36] Aura beneficiaries of it.

Stu Willis:
[10:38] All beneficiaries there is the character the burgas to superior it was kind of like I get the Wizard of Oz that the Puppet Master,
patriarch which is relevant to mudbound you know and.

Chas Fisher:
[10:51] There’s also the technology of the world so one of the major set pieces is a self driving car chase scene so in a film which is,
thematically about free will there he has to have a in incredibly.
Action packed chasing cars that have no free will.

Stu Willis:
[11:14] Oh and so there’s a couple other sources of pressure which is really great so there’s one more immediately and John because there is a timeline for when he’s meant to be killing
this man has his investigation will reveal is the Malay man that may be responsible for the death of John child there is kind of like the personal,
antagonistic force of the death of this kid the character wound which were introduced,
Stu is actually a source of pressure on the character and coming back to a marble first X episode that’s an interesting way to think about the character woman is it’s a source of pressure,
which is different from the floor the wound is it when does a pressure so he’s got that wound,
leads and then it comes up will in a quotes question will hear I want him but only as the solicitor clock the character wound and then there is this,
basically didn’t vote that he’s going to go to take pre-crime national and as well as great almost verhoeven asked,
video introductions talking about the technology pre-crime
how to go on a boat that going yet and that’s important because the conspiracy cause this is going to the conspiracy thriller like it’s so good it’s all super laid is about the going to take it national and it there and they refer to it as the system they called about
free time and you felt instability infallibility infallibility of the system is something they actually,
now there is the film itself is very much aware The Proclaimers the system.

Chas Fisher:
[12:41] Honest measure it is infallible they haven’t since pre-crime has been implemented there hasn’t been a murder in that area it’s just whether they have been imprisoning innocent people or not is the key,
question to be result but I want it just borrow down into what you’re talking about in terms of the the political.
Antagonistic force in the conspiracy because I think they’ve made some genius,
craft decisions and what prompted this is today I was randomly listening to a BBC enquiry podcast about the dictators survival guide like what do dictators have to do.
You know looking at dictators all over the world that Mugabe was in power for 40 years so so what do dictators have to do to survive and one of it was implement the control apparatus,
and one of the things that this film does so well is it as well his pre-crime but it is limited pre-crime to just one city,
and that there is the goal to implement the system Nationwide to the fact that it’s only in one city and it is yet to go Nationwide is crucial to the idea that the system can be overthrown.

Stu Willis:
[13:58] Yeah could be sorted.

[14:01] Within a year pre-crime effectively starter motor in our Nations capital.
The hasn’t been a single mother and now pre-crime can work for you do you want to make absolutely certain that every American can bang and the other infallibility persist,
and to ensure that what keeps us safe.

Chas Fisher:
[14:41] Pre-crime was all over the world and have been implemented for 50 years.
As opposed to being it’s only been around for it I can’t remember how long it was but a relatively recent thing like 5 years,
it’s only been around relatively recently it’s been proposed and is being audited the Colin Farrell character is the person whose design to test program to see if it works or not.

Stu Willis:
[15:08] Yeah He represents the Department of Justice.

Chas Fisher:
[15:10] So I think that’s really important.

Stu Willis:
[15:12] Colin Farrell character Aqua is a antagonistic Force on the system itself in fact he’s a more of a threat to burgers who is the patriarch of the system then he is at 8,
because he’s not investigating atterton right he’s investigating bergersen pre-crime anyway.
And I’m pretty sure the what what is insta came back to work I’m at goals and obstacles sweet this is something we haven’t talked about much on this podcast like in draughts you’re always a hole but antagonism is so related to goals,
an obstacle is the antagonist at least obstacle specifically about talking to Carrie to give me a call if they have no gold how do you antagonize them right,
like you can’t it’s it seems obvious.

Chas Fisher:
[16:03] And often their Aunt at sources of antagonism create the goal.

Stu Willis:
[16:06] Waikato way the cat box question how do I have a cup of that and then becomes the sequence of therefore but they’re full but so in this case he,
Madison said he is going to murder.
Whatever there’s going to be that together crow rights a part of the whole 30 love between opening a Minority Report fixed you’ll have to piece together the crime from imagery,
that’s all I’ve ever been given like a booklet of what’s going to happen there is still just a cut a little popsicles or will they put the pieces together and then he works up.
Was going to go on.

Chas Fisher:
[16:39] Will give him a give him the the detective engine of the film is he has to find cause he doesn’t know the person who he’s a who he’s been told he’s going to kill.

Stu Willis:
[16:49] Who do I who am I going to kill and why.

Chas Fisher:
[16:53] And in doing that investigation he ends up with the decision.
Is going to kill that person by discovering who he is now one of the things that we’ve really gloss over in terms of antagonism is the how the technology works itself.

Stu Willis:
[17:11] I was heaps of JAG on Hangout specifically important yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[17:15] So pre-crime the way that they are able to create these images dick predictions of Future murders.
Is through a,
the children of a drug addicts people who are pregnant were users of a new hallucinogenic drug while pregnant children born from that.

Stu Willis:
[17:40] What’s up at the Port of stranger things,
dawn of drug addicts LSD experiments run by the CIA man 60s perhaps.

Chas Fisher:
[17:49] In Washington DC the way the pre-crime predictions work is there three they call them precogs and it’s something that I’ve only really.
Come to terms with in looking at the film through this lens because it’s not very dealt with in the film but the precogs journey is also an expression of free will vs determine,
determination is there slaves.

Stu Willis:
[18:15] We have no free will.

[18:17] Ancestor images Beauty.
Email writing desk and buy web article to Margaret wait like 10 points pass along entire length of the head urinary red after absorption to the brain.
Another word we see what.
Feeling panicky pretty with minimal control butter.

Chas Fisher:
[19:03] There their trap into the system because they’re serving to the greater good right and,
ultimately it’s important that the film and the wants the system is brought down there’s a shot of the three of the precogs just free in a house in the countryside living by themselves they win,
agency and determination from slavery by bringing down a system that was based on the idea of pre-determination over I just wanted to bring that in that bit.

Stu Willis:
[19:34] 90 stone is actually great there a reminder is it may be a Neil Gaiman Terry Pratchett folk story about the kid that is sacrificed to the cave and basically.

Chas Fisher:
[19:44] It’s in American God’s it’s one of the.
Not not to give it you know spoil a book as well as and potentially a TV series but he’s the god that ends up living in the snow town that ends up putting kids in the boots of cars and sinking them.

Stu Willis:
[20:05] No rego but that’s the idea of it if you could protect the world bye bye sacrificing three children,
is that something you’re prepared to do it you know this is what’s pretty interesting that it came out in 2010 now shooting at during September 11 in the whole doing that.
No shooting at you know just before I just after September 11 and I can’t anxiety about the surveillance state of minutes so relevant you know what price security,
what how much you willing to give up you know that’s one of the defining things but what’s interesting about the precogs as they are both a as you say they’ve got their own journey
they are kind of
Serene antagonistic 4th but there a gold is what happens as adderton is on the run and he’s got this question of what do I do about Crows kind of the fines like I guess the question for the first date to the end of the third act and then in the middle,
he meets the inventor of pre-crime who.

Chas Fisher:
[21:05] One of the co inventors.

Stu Willis:
[21:06] Call me when is Doctor I assignment and she reveals that there is this thing called the Minority Report.
Which is Agatha play by Samantha Morton where she can have a different vision of a alternate future.

[21:21] 3 x f.

[21:35] Most of the time or 3p cognitive associative enter the same way but once in a while one of them will see things.
Because he’s Minority Report so I just joined the instant their functions it can’t be any suggestions availability after all who won suggest about it maybe.

Stu Willis:
[22:04] And this is being kept secret by Mr patriarch I’m pretty sure he doesn’t say that it’s him.

Chas Fisher:
[22:12] Battery just gone Max von sydow.

Stu Willis:
[22:14] Burgers and basically added to me now has a new goal which is,
get to.

Chas Fisher:
[22:26] Steele Agatha yeah.

Stu Willis:
[22:27] Stu Agus improve is innocent and in Agatha comes along and then she becomes much is physically doesn’t walk the she’s a physical obstacle to him,
um there’s a whole seconds of him having to break in and part of him having to break in is that he has to get an eye transplant because he’s up,
recognition everywhere like Target basic like Target of web banners you know this is Facebooking 2002,
Mark Zuckerberg we watch this film I didn’t think it was a dystopia right he’s probably like that’s a pretty good idea.

[22:58] He did not take the moral lessons from the film,
and then he reveals conspiracy need to to reveal it too much but you can see how there’s he’s all these things and it leads to the pressure rises to Atherton,
did you send this this decision it’s not the final decision but it’s a key decision for him because once he’s worked out the crow or believe that crow,
is it this hotel room and stuff coming down on the 36 hours right so time is against him but it kind of makes him feel this he believes that,
crow is a serial child killer.

[24:20] He makes the choice to not kill him crow actually grab the gun and kill himself.
At that point adderton is confronted with the truth that the system that pre-crime.
Doesn’t work cause until that point he still believes in pre-crime the fact that business minority portents it’s a freaking doesn’t work I mean that there is. But doesn’t mean that the whole system the system itself is broken.
This point he’s beginning to realise the system is broke.

Chas Fisher:
[24:50] I’m going to go a step further I mean just to write back to a point that you’ve,
made is that there’s always wonderful set pieces and sequences leading up to this and I think in those set pieces and sequences,
Anderson is not always the protagonist I think the Colin Farrell character is occasionally the antagonist late in the sequence where and in turn is kidnapping Agatha,
I think anderton is the antagonist and Colin Farrell is the.
Protagonist there’s a scene where were Colin Farrell figures out.
Like figures out the conspiracy and Burgess shoots and that’s 18 just between,
Colin Farrell and Burgess there’s so that that’s just me going back to reinforce your part one piece is that the scene and sequence protagonist and antagonist in changed but.
Going back to that that choice that Anderson is presented with to kill him he believes the murder of his son.

[26:03] Open to that point there’s a whole sequence where even though Samantha Morton Agatha,
where Agatha presents a physical antagonistic force to her own extraction from pre-crime she also,
assist in her escape by using her abilities to predict the future there’s a.

Stu Willis:
[26:23] Left right stay here 5 seconds whenever you.

Chas Fisher:
[26:26] So everything in the movie up until the point of andertons decision to shoot crow or not shows that pre-crime works the Predestination is real that we don’t have choice.
Until he makes the choice.
So that’s what I think is even more interesting about the sources of antagonistic that the antagonistic forces in this film is that they actually show that the system is perfect.

Stu Willis:
[26:54] The question in the world view well they kind of there is a well viewer the system over the film is demonstrating but ultimately
comes undone I’m in his world you what I’m trying to
and I’m going back to it cause he mentioned about your time town this thing ultimately this damn I hear that he is confronted with Chrome
is about his wealth you about pre-crime and all this evidence that Agatha because she is top we are told that she is the best of the precogs but she is the strongest so he should give it to him he actually is liberated by her.

[27:47] If you told him you were going to have to shoot him he probably would have actually done it,
if you told him you don’t actually shoot him that’s mine I Minority Report he wouldn’t have shot him in fact he was handing over his face she was giving him agency at this point of the film and my one criticism of it when I saw it,
right and I know why they did it I’d I didn’t believe the Tom Cruise was going to kill this guy cause it’s Tom Cruise if I made Colin Farrell.
If a car Colin Farrell is going out of town and they made Tom Cruise the cop investigating pre-crime that would have been interesting film to be in terms of what you bring to it because of the system of Hollywood,
time in all this stuff orchestrating this moment because he’s got the gun him in a watch is counting down and you can go into am I going to do this thing am I doing it just because I’m in told to it,
and then we went to the kind of like the 4th act of the film.
After the Colin Farrell characters been killed by burger switch works so beautifully because adderton by stealing Agatha means a pre-prime is no longer working.

[28:55] Course it would have to be something with access Provisions in the first place someone throwing up.
Footsteps up the stairs I crashed out the window and I’m Clickety click a little spiders do you know why I can’t hear any of those things only because right now we got scared.

Stu Willis:
[29:22] The burger can kill him to reveal himself as the villain.
Show me some stuff about broken families in there but ultimately editing confronts,
escapes is wet out of the prison where he sees all his dreams come true and he manages to be let out by his ex-wife you decided that she wants to reconcile with him with the Philip K dick stuff that I love,
if you’re into it and I think it’s interested in this question of whether or not the end of the film is a dream other than it being kind of like her,
ending a puddle but I think it really isn’t it like the ending of Inception but basically.
Lara let him out to his ex-wife new reports generated and then burgis will kill anderton is kind of what it says burgers confronts anderton at.
Do you know where it’s basically it’s like it’s something to do with the election vote can it be medically relevant but basically,
how to turn becomes the antagonist for burgers at this point and he basically says to Burke.

Chas Fisher:
[30:34] In that last sequence Burgess is definitely the the protagonist anderton is the antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[30:41] I actually took these action with killing the detective gone Ferrell’s character
where is called and whitmer coming with my own then yeah he is he’s basically his final sequence is actually really following him for a bit with Burgers with Lara like he becomes almost a POV character and adderton comes in and basically says.

[31:03] If you don’t kill me precocial wrong in pre prep.
But approved the system works.

Stu Willis:
[31:23] So you lose I by the way and that meant to reveal the floor of the system I guess which is that once people know what the future is they cannot they can change it or a happy future.

Chas Fisher:
[31:35] Yeah which is quite a while I get that it’s only anderton and Burgess,
I know and I agree with that the conceptual idea of it I also think that the film cleverly posits that there is still choice all the way along they don’t know I think.

Stu Willis:
[31:59] Because there’s in the Minority Report maybe he chose in that decision that that all this.

Chas Fisher:
[32:05] The precogs can see alternative futures.

Stu Willis:
[32:10] You’re right and in fact owl reading of the film changes in the Nexus question it because maybe the guy whatever is in the very in the open the cold open and it shows the technology in action maybe he doesn’t kill his wife.
You know and end that’s the dangerous.
Recognition so makes us because it does a good job with you go wow the system really works and then,
UC added to Hero like on a metal level you like I loudly character is now being framed for Murder but it’s Tom Cruise is either mean the system doesn’t work or he’s going to go I like it I can’t leave.

Chas Fisher:
[32:47] Yeah it definitely it definitely leads us to believe that it is in the system that’s broken he’s been framed and that’s why he.
That’s his initial belief as well I think he even says it when that that pre-crime prediction comes in and that his mission is to prove that he’s been framed.
Not the pre-crime doesn’t work.

Stu Willis:
[33:11] And that is his fair need to come back to our discussion from the previous part like
the character needs to the Rider wants to take him which is he have to give up the system that the Believer in the system do no longer believe it be his wants very early on have nothing to do with that,
in fact they’re about keeping the system intact he possibly willing to sacrifice himself for the system,
and I think Justin coming back to kind of them really touching the rules in the world and stuff like that but they are related a lot of the technology we see that forms an antagonist,
in the film like it’s related to surveillance it’s related to self determination water metre machinery,
but all the stuff to do with his eyes and then scan in the eyes and him eating his operation and then the little spiders that do with surveillance which pre-crime is surveillance,
they found a way,
the writers of found a way to make it fuel cohesive because the antagonistic forces with other obstacles or pressure or kind of enablers.
My foot is a pause or whatever and I bet that my terms are in specific for good reason,
related to the world that the system itself you know.

Chas Fisher:
[34:30] I think one of the things I’m probably going to get to at the end but Minority Report is a real clear example of this is I think you make the choice to have a water system antagonist,
where you’ve got a very strong formatik message to deliver.
Weather the the plot and the genre will change depending on whether you want the protagonist to actively try to overthrow the system or not.
But regardless of those conventions you can choose a system or a world being the antagonist when you’re trying to.
Say something somatically and it’s just it goes to the writing of the script in god we should probably look up who wrote Minority Report kisses an amazing screenplay my.

Stu Willis:
[35:26] The number of write it but I think the main one was that.

Chas Fisher:
[35:28] Scott Frank.

Stu Willis:
[35:30] Ascot Vale.

Chas Fisher:
[35:31] Enough said but we chose Minority Report because it’s such a clear example,
such a great example of the the use of the world being an antagonist of course but it is also as we discussed dramatise those through characters,
who are antagonistic forces at 8,
I’ll see nature in that there are sentient I mean it’s kind of the point of the film is choice and sentience but through their the cars and then the whole idea the whole,
foundation of the technology they could have invented pre-crime,
through some kind of algorithm right but they didn’t.
Freak it’s organic and it is the way that pre-crime works is by,
was going to say the 18 to me I think a key thematic thing about how precogs help pre-crime works as a premise is that it is through the enslavement and the removal of choice,
people anyway.

Stu Willis:
[36:43] Yes,
morning it’s great it’s a really great summary of it I miss you to suggest that we move on to Dawn of the Planet of the Apes now I don’t think will necessarily do it isn’t

Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes

[36:57] even I think the great film but it’s it’s clearly manhole Trilogy has a very clear during over 3 films.

Chas Fisher:
[37:04] Dawn the first or the second one.

Stu Willis:
[37:05] I know right.

Chas Fisher:
[37:06] Ok I was get confused cause to me rise should happen after the Dawn.

Stu Willis:
[37:11] But it’s Rise Dawn war.

[37:32] Alarm in counselling there.

Stu Willis:
[38:12] In this particular one reason I wanted to choose this is a does a couple of things which also connect to my Blackdown structurally cause I’m going to say that the Dawn of the Planet of the Ape the system,
this film is violence and distrust it’s not a system like Minority Report because clearly like this thing architected
did nothing architected in Dawn of the Planet of the Apes so it’s a sequel to rise of the Planet of the Apes which for whatever reason this is the first one
and basically there is this virus the plz 113 virus otherwise known as the simian flu has his double effect increases the intelligence
of primates don’t humans so chimpanzees Apes gorillas.

Chas Fisher:
[38:58] Well also having a high mortality rate on humans.

Stu Willis:
[39:02] So if I get them get exam which if you watch Contagion you’d realise is a pretty high mortality rate plus the implication is during the opening of the film,
like my area Port when I set them up the world I’m in this is not a versus distance from this is a VS well pump let me say that it’s not architected it’s about the world but it’s not about a system that has been design.

Chas Fisher:
[39:24] Well I think I think that is the big difference between the First and the second film because.
I think you could articulate both films as VS.
World right from Caesar’s perspective if you look it’s easier at the protagonist and I don’t think Cesar is the protectors one of the protagonist in the first time but I think James Franco’s character but Caesar games.

Stu Willis:
[39:54] Is educated.

Chas Fisher:
[39:55] Yeah is educated but also put under such antagonistic pressures like that he’s put in that horrible containment.

Stu Willis:
[40:02] Tortured in.

Chas Fisher:
[40:05] Yeah where he ends up seeing the human world as the enemy,
and that he must escape it right so take that the combination of that come with him taking it and escaping it.

Stu Willis:
[40:17] Yeah it’s right there.

Chas Fisher:
[40:18] Now I would say the human the human world in that film while it’s not consciously crafted they certainly make conscious decisions about where animals sit in that hierarchy.

[40:28] Don’t mean any harm that what you look like.

Chas Fisher:
[40:39] Animals are animals and I less than humans and can be mistreated is a rule the world that Caesar rebelled against once he gains his intelligence.

Stu Willis:
[40:50] And even know they have intelligence even though they have clear sentients there is a division there is a species of them,
I want human lights that is a really great read the second film The Ages of escaped they basically set up their own April,
kind of like Disneyland for Apes up in these now out in these whatever forestry is San Francisco and unbeknownst to them humans have moved back into San Francisco and also build in their community and unbeknownst to them or,
we realise have some idea but not the extent of it is this a lz 113 virus the virus the made the Apes and primates Mark White battle humans and also that pressure itself let him into basically killing each other,
in the violet.

[41:35] Maybe this is it


Stu Willis:
[41:56] I’m just kind of it’s a post-apocalyptic world so there there is two car at least two groups of characters that we can follow,
which is Caesar’s world and he is everyone related to his son blue eyes,
befriend Ash and importing me kind of Caesar’s second-in-command Cobar who’s from the first film a very physically and emotionally damaged Bonobo Bonobo is that how you say it.

Chas Fisher:
[42:25] Is such a powerful antagonist ad they bring it back in the third film even though he’s killed in this.

Stu Willis:
[42:30] Just spoilers man spoilers but that’s ok so Coburg dangerous to humans they learn at these humans are building 10.

Chas Fisher:
[42:42] Will the main Domain pressure in the second film is that there is the humans there’s a hydroelectric Dam,
in the 8 Territory which if they can connect to that power then they can bring electricity back to San Francisco and start to rebuild civilisation.

[42:59] Feel the damn scrimmaging tattoo can probably still generating power for a swim in a week.
Call Dad is not possible tell me if they did it was incredible,
Apes with blackberries I know exactly what you saw or heard you have to come down ok.

Chas Fisher:
[43:37] To the point that you were making earlier is the reason why it doesn’t feel so much as a system is it the humans,
a rebuilding or a building their civilization as much as the Apes are and also they’re not interacting they’re not exerting power over each other.

Stu Willis:
[43:57] No it’s not designed.
The I mean may be distrusted the pain but essentially Cobar doesn’t trust the humans their by this Malcolm.
And there are some humans that is basically the cove is opposite within human this is a story of parallels it’s beautifully structured because you follow Malcolm is like,
Caesar he wants the best for his people and he’s willing to trust and co-operate his offsider,
distress I don’t think their friends in the same way that Clover and and Caesar have a tight Bond preface in the parallels and then there’s the whatever it is what’s his name.
Severus Snape Severus Snape.
Gary Oldman character back in San Francisco ultimately humans and Caesar’s unwillingness to.
Not unwillingness be done unless we have to go to humans up to his live and let live leaves Cobar to investigate what the humans doing scene at the stop buying weapons and the reason they stop only happens if they don’t trust humans.

Chas Fisher:
[45:26] It is beautifully set up from the first film I think he’s is Jenny because he’s is the only one of those 82 is known kindness and love from humans so it does have a complex.

Stu Willis:
[45:38] And Caesar has a very clear rules which were about a society.

Chas Fisher:
[45:44] Apes not her tape.

Stu Willis:
[45:46] 88 strong a pop not hurt a bat is what he’s going to make them different,
right and Cobra is the Challenger of the that will view his challenging Caesars believe his worldview that trust and non violence is a way to live and Malcolm is the same to his,
Leah Goldman character whoever years,
right I’ll probably what happens is the Cobar.
Tends to kill well he does he shoots either and frames humans and leads the Apes into San Francisco and then we sleep under the armory in a mountain assault on the tower,
right, is an absolute psycho hellbent in destroying humans for the Cobar.
As a character in the film and you can feel it is that when asked refuses Coke orders to kill humans.
And he referred back to Caesar overthrows,
horrible minute cruise at over the the edge of a of a building to his death and any other all the loyal wireless to see them him present,
and ultimately all this is happening baby when I try and get to this story is the there’s a whole bunch of great stuff to do with the physical environment of the world that parallel.

Chas Fisher:
[47:02] I was waiting for you to get to the point.

Stu Willis:
[47:05] You bitch.
Is it scissors pressured to make a decision which is does he give in until Cobar.
Is he become a person does he break his own moles I shall not kill ape does he break his own rules to regain power and to bring peace or does he not.

[47:31] Caesar us price.
Apes photo
call back now.

[47:52] The long goodbye.
War games.
Caesar week.

Stu Willis:
[48:29] Basically what happens is Caesar rejected him he Coburg does the submission gesture and and see that I can take it and let’s hope it doesn’t push him off,
fact is he still complicit in coke is down that is the choice to he makes and,
set up virtual beautifully which is that they know that is now a human military is coming because Malcolm was not able to convince because of cobas actions,
did the 8th of peaceful and that leads into the film The what is interesting about this film is the parallel structure,
cause it’s about the showing this world in the way each of them deals with those conflicts silly 22 Contagion from.

Chas Fisher:
[49:11] You’ve articulated this beautifully from the characters perspective particularly from Coburg from Caesar is a protagonist but tell me why you wanted to talk about it in the context of the world being the antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[49:24] Because it’s the walls of the world because these systems are rules,
write whether or not whether they’re bag artificially constructive like Minority Report or we shooting now artificially constructed in The Lobster,
where is nothing but like mudbound is is a link into my butt how to go from Moana report to my bum this phone because it’s the same thing these are the rules of their society and how they order to people that things that they are and accessories,
pressured by all these forces to give in to break his own rules his worldview is challenge that leave out with you more than anything else.

Chas Fisher:
[50:03] What’s interesting about this film then is in particular the second one which I think is actually the best of the trilogy.

Stu Willis:
[50:12] Absolutely.

Chas Fisher:
[50:13] Is that Caesar is setting the rules he is the leader he is the architect.
All the rules of the world in the second film.

Stu Willis:
[50:26] I mean look I just think it’s I do think it I wanted to do it cuz I rewatched it recently before watching War of the Planet of the Apes on my comp man this film better than I remembered it’s,
the way too complex out the interpersonal conflict the nature and complex everything how it’s all semantically parent all about the need for trust in the desire to peace and the danger of violence and escalation you know.
I mean I don’t I don’t think he’s had any other choice to do what he did and that’s what that’s why it’s a tragedy.

Chas Fisher:
[50:57] I agree with you but I think looking stepping back and looking at it from a craft perspective what makes this film fascinating and different is the level of,
you’re in Minority Report John anderton is not the architect of the rules he’s The Enforcer of them in the lobster,
better not be Architects of the rules we don’t even know who set the rules or when they just assumed in mudbound,
it’s never even questioned who has whether racism should or should not exist right where is in.

Stu Willis:
[51:32] I think it’s all going to my band I think it’s not does racism against white supremacy because white supremacy is an idea.
And you should read the great article know this might be a trigger for a whole bunch of people,
our first white on the first white president idea of what,
it being a system actually means the Jim crow laws were a fucking system a self-reinforcing system it wasn’t just a bunch of people it was people,
legitimately thinking about the supremacy of me so angry and on that note we should transition.

Chas Fisher:
[52:10] Yeah and I think importantly what we’re getting to hear is that what makes it a system,
what makes it a world what makes it the protagonist the story the narrative story of the protagonist being pitted against those system or being pitted against that world is,
from a dramatic level,
is that there are rules you talk about Jim crow laws they are the rules enacted by an underlying belief they are the dramatisation of it.

Stu Willis:
[52:43] I think the tragedy of MNS later mudbound which is you say is it’s kind of,
it is rules I think what makes the Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is there is a sense of inevitability of what is going to happen,
the end of the film I think you once Cobar shoot cesar you like I’ll fuck but the goal is for Caesar how do I stop Cobar but he realises he has to become a thing,
38 he has to break his own rules to try to protect the system his world which is the world of the Apes but that sets in a chain it the whole thing is set up a chain of events,
which I guess makes it relevant to the world it makes it a little bit more unique in the other films because no I think I think it’s actually,


[53:31] you say no I think there is a mallet and inevitability of tragedy and inevitability in mug about more than The Lobster.

Chas Fisher:
[53:40] Yeah definitely.

[53:41] Violence is part and parcel of country life I don’t have a stick to the bleeding wind load and fire shotgun.

[54:02] He was gone already.

Chas Fisher:
[54:40] Before we get into this her anyway listeners who haven’t seen mudbound yet,
please be warned that it deals with a whole lot of,
racially motivated violence and racism I mean that’s really what the film is about and we do use some exit from the film that uses some very offensive language,
if you like feel free to skip forward to the next section which deals with the lobster.

Stu Willis:
[55:11] Mudbound is a period films we mention before it’s set in rural Mississippi,
and it’s set around World War 2 just before and just after an it.

Chas Fisher:
[55:22] Endearing.

Stu Willis:
[55:23] And during yeah at certain period of time around World War 2 in,
I’d like a Fitzroy town but with in Mississippi in the Mississippi Delta and there’s two families Henry McAllen and he’s played by Jason Clarke.
This is it the same actors in this in this episode
Jason Clarke going to be talking about doing Samantha Morton film in the neck,
Henry makow in his wife Laura who is Carrie mcelligott Mulligan is making another repeat appearance on our antagonists series and there is a very racist father Papi,
he’s also got a brother I think it’s Jason what’s his brother’s name Jamie Jamie.

Chas Fisher:
[56:11] About that sounds right.

Stu Willis:
[56:12] And then me my we find me the Jackson family which is the farmer had his wife Florence and their children the key one of which is runzel.
Right so tell me but there’s some obstacle stuff the film opens with what we realise is like an Enderman rap it sets up the tensions and is actually really gate a great example of just obstacles at work which is,
Jamie and Henry are trying to bury what we think is their father and they find basically that the grave that,
they’re trying to put him in quickly before it rains pressure is a slaves grave.

[56:52] Visit Greece,
Mr Bean I’m on a way that sells wood heater more.

Stu Willis:
[57:15] Which means it’s unlocked there is literally make it by points very strongly there is literally the bones of slaves in this are my pride and Patti would not be happy with that being said.
And then this black family.

Chas Fisher:
[57:34] You’re missing the bit where where the brother almost let’s Jamie drown in the grave.

Stu Willis:
[57:41] Yeah yeah yeah it’s raining in the trying to Girraween in and you like I’ve got Henry going to let him drown in the grave any you left him out and then the family Jackson family is coming you buy and they basically are the help.
To bury this person that we’re pretty convinced is,
racist going to like go over 70 and what your word is a Ku Klux Klan member and Jackson pap berries,
that kind of the opening thing it’s it’s all the tensions in this film in this idea at the name says this might be a bit this duck is connected to land in history and goes on.
There is so much to my packing this film.

Chas Fisher:
[58:22] Yeah I think is a wave attacking it’s we tackle it in the same way that we tackled Contagion in terms of looking at the before like the main character’s and how the world is there antagonist in.
How they were their journeys in that context.

Stu Willis:
[58:40] But unlike Contagion Contagion contagious
I like that film,

I don’t think there is it the world is a single antagonist but I think,
Wayne antagonizes characters different it is not a singular as a virus I think the pressures on all these characters coming from the world if it is connected I think it is or you could see it as a system.
Or a kind of historical system of a social it’s a social order,
but I don’t think it’s a single I saw it is different is the role of women through all the locations of women quotations and white women vs black men Brothers vs,
when your role and odours the implication of World War 2 there is a ton of them going on I mean this is a very loaded material but ultimately leads to him very particular,
Choices by the characters at the very end of the film.

Chas Fisher:
[59:36] Me me me saying I think if you look at it is any kind of unfair prejudicial power in balance reinforced by Society.
So it’s not just that an individual is prejudicial it’s that the society reinforces that prejudice.

Stu Willis:
[59:55] And crack steering forces of that prejudice that maintain that maintain the system there are maintain is there I meant as in my rari report the pre-crime cops of the cell,
updating but there is it kind of the maintain is of the of the system even in Dawn of the Planet Apes those that we’re like we can’t trust the Apes all those that will be in contrast to humans.
Containers of that world.

Chas Fisher:
[1:00:21] Yeah so interestingly as soon as that sort of cold open it does AA Stewart special.

Stu Willis:
[1:00:29] Not made out to me.

Chas Fisher:
[1:00:30] Name Dr Stuart Riddell for of scriptnotes Fame.
After that cold open it then goes into Laura play by Kerry mulligans point of view she,
provides a voice over and I actually think if we ever do a long debated voice over episode this would be one of a good contender.
It’s from her point of view as Henry is doing her and it’s ultimately that they seem to be in upper middle class.
Wealthy well to do white people who are such as that Society can falling in love with each other.

[1:01:24] Decree from update web browser.

Chas Fisher:
[1:01:38] And he’s the force of antagonism on her as soon as he decides that he wants to be a farmer and moved it as land in Mississippi.

[1:01:49] Another way to farm in Mississippi and will be moving there in 3 weeks time.
40 miles south of Greenville.
Beagle Porsche Figtree Girls in Love at four bedrooms.
We love this house now you’re going on each how to get his own an hour mum is going there to look after you.
We got 200 eggs are fertile at Magic.

[1:02:37] Cannot acquire mum’s brand
she’s no I want to my Palm Sunday I told you.

Chas Fisher:
[1:02:49] All these characters provide different I think perspectives on the spectrum of prejudice I don’t think Henry sees himself,
as a racist or even an enabler of prejudice but he certainly is,
the character that never questions his privilege and when his privileges question he reinforces it,
and so does that through his relationship with as you said half the black family next door because their tenants aren’t they there.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:23] Yes they went the land from him but they worked at Farmers well it’s like that double edged which is How the Grinch Jim Crows laws work.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:34] It’s it’s a power structured 2 in to maintain to stop bike families from being landowners.
Right and you’ll see that the when hap injures his leg Henry moves in.

[1:03:48] You’re Laura be willing to plan by now I never even got your fuel to leave bar.
Can I put weed in longer help your family understand that possible.
You don’t know Tom.
Last time you would like just a little slower than the boys I don’t want to mess up your go and have shares to pay it off.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:19] What you need to gain an economic advantage to reinforce happs inferiority and maintain his position as a.
Indentured tenant rather than as a Freelander land owner and so Henry gives us this perspective because he’s starts out as being the attractive character,
for Carrie Mulligan and.
Never doesn’t seem early on in the film to have prejudicial points of view but as it progresses and whenever Henry is forced to make a choice he does make a choice to reinforce his privilege and to protect his privilege.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:00] Yeah so it’s almost like the obstacle the antagonist forces to Henry are you going to rise above this we feel the pressure forces on him by his father puppies racist father and,
Poppy but he make certain choices in reaction to that Henry is always asking of.
The Jackson family but their tenants they can’t say no no not very.

Chas Fisher:
[1:05:25] Oh yeah I mean.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:26] Very hard.

Chas Fisher:
[1:05:27] I’m I’m being very kind to Henry,
early on in the film in that Henry has a lot of unspoken expectations of hat like the very meeting of Henry and hap is Henry walking in on hats family dinner and expecting happy to,
get up and help him unload his furniture and move into the house.
So I’m not I’m by no means suggesting that Henry was a Paragon of equity early on in the film.
But it’s interesting to see that you know you could kind of in a way for give that as.
As Henry’s cultured upbringing it’s just that when talking about antagonistic forces and the rules of the world that whenever Henry is expected to make it choice
he falls on the side of actually reinforcing the idea of white supremacy so.

Stu Willis:
[1:06:23] In contrast to his brother and that’s significant the film machine that there is another way to Bing which is Jamie.
His brother,
and so the film is kind of divided I think maybe the first don’t like that kind of doesn’t matter film is kind of a little bit Terrence Malick a little bit episodic a little bit dreamy,
is really thin film to watch is that when World War 2 with the attack on Pearl Harbour Jamie commission is commission and runs all
mystery break away to their POV so we see drums or commanding a tank serums l,
having a romance with a white woman we can see him he’s been treated with respect,
you know as he is someone that he’s fighting for his country a country which street in him shit and now he is living a liberating Europe where is James experience is quite different he’s buying a bummer his,
CoPilot is plates platters brains all over him,
no they both have off suffer like the world war 2 them itself is a antagonists it’s a pressure on my two characters the forces them,
key chain.

Chas Fisher:
[1:07:34] And it’s and it’s interestingly World War 2 is presented as an antagonist to these characters almost as an HR antagonist in that they have no control and no negotiation and.
interesting how the the film plays that I think from budgetary reasons I got very limited ways of showing Jamie and runs hours experience of World War 2 but they only ever show,
rondel family waiting fearfully for his safe return they never showed Laura or Henry.
Oh Papi the white family waiting desperately for Jamie’s return safe return.

Stu Willis:
[1:08:20] No I don’t think I actually think before getting into Jamie and runs our we should touch briefly on Laura Henry his wife was ok so we actually have probably the main POV characters Henry Laura as a hat,
Florence his hats wife and runs out anything Papi is a point of view character at all.

Chas Fisher:
[1:08:43] He’s almost like a shark he’s he’s an intact pure antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[1:08:47] To everyone particularly Laura Minnie still them antagonist Henry.

Chas Fisher:
[1:08:52] Well I would say particularly runs out of every going to say who is the greatest was about agonism do but yes he’s is awesome antagonism to everyone in the film.

Stu Willis:
[1:09:03] Solara obviously have to deal with the fact that she is a wife.
In her in a well that yes women have suffrage and all that stuff but he’s not doesn’t have much power does not have much financial power she’s been married to Henry it’s a bit passionless she is taking her to somewhere she does not like particularly
and she had a moment of attraction with Jamie.
When they’re dancing at Henry notice but Henry still propose to her because Jamie lights all the girls even though he made Laura feel special and said she has some very specific.
A couple of specific optical she suffers a miscarriage and then she calls on Florence from the Jackson’s to kind of be her comfort.

Chas Fisher:
[1:09:51] I think in terms of talking about how her sources of antagonism are with the world Laura is,
someone who who has a white character doesn’t see her race is privileging herself such that,
she her relationship is primarily with Florence search the day she calls on Florence she wants to,
employ Florence to make her own life better initially but importantly she undermines her own husband by paying for a doctor to come and see hops late.

[1:10:28] A
1362 the day the confederate forces crashed the union Army in the Battle Richmond,
I don’t think he knew that I need accommodation.
Yes I’m dr Perlman I’m here to treat your husband
oh thank you.

If you ask me before him out I told you always balls with the same.

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:16] And her relation doing that it intern is a source man tag is Mum Florence to not see Laura as a white person but rather as a.
It is not clearly stated but as a woman motto.

Stu Willis:
[1:11:32] I think fines realises did your lemon that she’s been putting just that she has to put Laura’s well-being over the well-being her her own family because.

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:42] Yeah I’m I’m kind of jumping across different sequences that’s definitely definitely a bit of that where you here and florences voice over there that’s her decision.

Stu Willis:
[1:11:55] So what do you think I mean we’re just trying to run through them a bit scattered but I think what makes focused is there all given specific,
choices the Integrity forces pressure the characters in the film to make,
key pieces which I think in the case of Laura manifest in a couple of these moment so when she decides to pay for the Dr chi chi.
Overalls Henry undermines by paying for the doctor but also when there’s a moment when she,
eventually give them to her passion for Jamie and sleeps with him
and then then and then we’ll get to Jamie this basically her reaction to what Jamie’s file choices so I’m going to skip to to Jamie me and I think Laura is a great point of view character,
and she is very.

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:45] All the source of all all of these characters journeys as they are dramatise can be phrased in terms of,
does this action does this binary choice that the antagonistic forces are pushing his characters to making support or undermine the idea of white Supremacy.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:05] Why me what you think Henry’s final choice is Cliff going to move them for Henry but I want to come back to that.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:11] Well it’s interesting because I think his final choice is actually,
is in terms of the decisions that he makes as an decisions that he’s presented with they happen much earlier like the end of the film Henry has become almost a non character.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:32] They actually disappeared from the party leaves he leaves the farm when the most significant events the events that actually bring the other characters together.
Happens in a psychic unfortunately jump to that because it is too big into the film but it kinda is the focus of all the characters journeys which.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:51] Can I can I answer your question about Henry he comes to someone who is forced through the pressures of antagonism be there economic pressures or him chasing his goal to be a farmer successful farmer.
To be an Enforcer of white Supremacy.

Stu Willis:
[1:14:10] Henry yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[1:14:11] Yeah I know and it happens in those middle sections of the film that we’ve discussed.

Stu Willis:
[1:14:16] Caesar comes to the theatre comes to the system please part of any never challenges.

Chas Fisher:
[1:15:17] It’s interesting that wants his to come to the system he ceases to be relevant as a character to the narrative.

Stu Willis:
[1:15:23] To the point that he leaves during this crucial event so I’m gonna jump forward to that cause I think this technique has worked is the event the kind of brings together the stories of Laura and pappy and Jamie I’m ones l,
any man happy in like everyone is that what we learn is that runs hours romance in the white with her the woman in Germany she’s actually German.

Chas Fisher:
[1:15:49] I thought she was Belgian bear.

Stu Willis:
[1:15:51] Well I’ve tried to be building has resulted in a child he’s got a mixed race child and he shows Jamie while sitting in the front seat because him and Jamie become good friends at this and then,
runs our realises that he has left the photo in the front seat with Jamie and their puppy has found it,
so happy is the super racist.

Chas Fisher:
[1:16:18] In in the lead up to that let me just,
quickly say that Jamie and runs out both come back from World War 2 and as veterans find more Solace in each other than anyone else around them.

[1:16:34] Your mouth sometimes been over there now I mean being shot out but sometimes I actually miss it.
Flowers delivery.
People lined up Industries waiting for throwing flowers.

[1:17:07] Yeah I’m just another needle pushing a player.

Stu Willis:
[1:17:10] OK yeah I think I was going to talk about this.

Chas Fisher:
[1:17:13] Yeah I know I don’t get what you’re saying about the ending but I’m just saying that it undermines the idea of white supremacy because they both.
End up drinking with each other and becoming friends with each other but they still have to hide their relationship and it’s.
Jamie’s actions directly lead to the consequence that you want to talk about Jamie,
demands the runs I’ll drive up in the front of the car,
with him because he sees him as an equal but the world around them doesn’t see them that way and it’s pappy seeing runs l driving up in the front of the car.
With Jamie that leads to this final climax and as you say Run 2.

Stu Willis:
[1:17:59] Yep so.

Chas Fisher:
[1:18:00] As sobrancelhas left at letter in the car which indicates that gives the puppy finds out the runs l has slept with a white woman.

Stu Willis:
[1:18:09] And that’s resulting in a child and so he game he gets the Ku Klux Klan together and winches,
rondel brutally beats him and then Papi gets for Jamie,
because he wants to Jamie a message and he forces Jamie to witness the trial.
Before they go through the
final punishment punishment of runs out and Jamie tried to fight people laugh he threatens to kill puppy but ultimately Peppa give chat
Jamie a choice about oneself punishment which is the Jamie is to decide whether runs out with his his eye his tongue
his testicles any Jamie does not choose,
they will kill ones l and these guys are fearless there is no sense that they believe will be any repercussions to the action.

Chas Fisher:
[1:19:04] And I would say that Jamie.
Does given like he’s obviously hating this choice that is put under with Jamie is ultimately not prepared.
To give his life to to avoid making this choice and it’s also Jamie’s hubris and lack of careful what would happen to runs out that has led to this.

Stu Willis:
[1:19:29] Yes he’s mean for a friend yes he’s he’s literally his lack of access to privilege makes him not understand.
Just the consequences if this since I think 10 they try to get ronzel to make choices with in this scene as well,
get him to confess to apologize the ones I was also given choices about how he views his own action and one cell,
is proud and refuses to back down which is why they kick to to Jamie and then Jamie chooses to have,
Mum’s I’ll have his tongue take it.
Anime strong up runs off his family discover and later that night Jamie McPhee the other key processes that this is the escalation I know we just me and Jamie.

Chas Fisher:
[1:20:20] I know I think it’s important in these in discussions of antagonistic forces to actually discuss their yeah to discuss how the film ends.

Stu Willis:
[1:20:30] Jamie smothers Papi with a pillow mother’s him to death.

[1:20:32] I want to make sure I look you in the eye.

Stu Willis:
[1:20:42] And then Laura realises the next morning that what’s happened and her choice is that when Henry who’s been conveniently missing for this third act turns up.

[1:21:08] She chooses to lie to him and then we see happen Florence taking care of ones l and then we re brought back to the opening of the film when they are very happy.
In the farm and happen finance have Lonsdale lying in the bed underneath their cart.

Chas Fisher:
[1:21:29] Yeah that’s the dramatic irony is that we know that Henry is about to come up and ask,
in an expectant fashion that have helped them when hat knows that,
he’s got his disfigured almost murdered son under the cart is dramatic irony in that the audience knows all this but but Henry doesn’t.

Stu Willis:
[1:21:52] That that one’s l it’s been to think it because of this man and Henry has no awareness of it because he’s a guess his thing is his honour where he is so.
Of his privilege.
Being I think it’s the older son as well he’s privilege that he doesn’t ask any questions and he is expecting it and I think that is.
I’m just so much about Henry but we understand James never cared for his father,
tqi and the father is challenge him throughout but what are the pressures on these pages that have web them all to make this decision,
that is as you say a really good point and I think makes it easier to focus Ron sellers come back from World War 2 and he is like I thought this fucking country,
I nearly died I experience of a Lifetime support for racism all the tank commander he comes back to Mississippi and very early on he enter through the front door of a shop to buy something with money his money he is,
Howard Wright he gets a sudden pay he’s a fucking officer and he buy some goods from me.

Chas Fisher:
[1:22:59] Non commissioned.

Stu Willis:
[1:23:01] Wow yeah.
But he still should demand degree of respect that he his family has been struggling so hard to have and I think you know what will do did help push the deal right through me this is also a ring up on it,
this is true I could help push the change because of what happened with his soldiers over there.

[1:23:21] This is wrong happened foreign system just returned from overseas.
You must be confused as to your whereabouts no son I can feel that I thank you bye.
I don’t know what they let you do over there but you and Mississippi now you use the back door.
Dawn somewhere.
You know what you’re absolutely Sears
just so you know we did.

Hello Hitler ninja.

Stu Willis:
[1:24:11] And ones that uses.
It’s a choice but he knows it’s just because Henry basically comes in at that point and warns him and said you need to submit to the system you’re back in April you’re back in Mississippi by know your place you use the back door,
this is being at the pressures on my cell.

Chas Fisher:
[1:24:30] Yeah and the Henry later goes to hack and get hap,
to force rondel to apologise to puppy so he gets
how to be an enabler essentially of the system where is runs I was trying to fight it so let’s talk about just very briefly we’ve gone through all the light major beta the film but Henry’s journey is one to become an enabler,
of the system from someone who you know perhaps didn’t care one way or another.

Stu Willis:
[1:25:05] I don’t I don’t think he has much for joining now I think about it I think Henry’s like that he is just complicit and complacent.

Chas Fisher:
[1:25:13] Yeah I.

Stu Willis:
[1:25:14] Enables Laura and Jamie the film is going to send them that was so clever about the film We Think We’re Following Henry.
But really his story kind of finishes and he’s just there to be The Enforcer.

Chas Fisher:
[1:25:31] And then I think Laura and Florence are interestingly the most positive,
representations in terms of the world is an antagonist in that there do the two actual characters who rise above the rules of the world and managed to act in ways that the world does not permit.
Then you’ve got Jamie who doesn’t care about the rules of the world and tell the world slap him back so hard
but he is so privilege and so ignorant it is privilege so ignorant of the rules of the world
that he brings destruction down on runs out who also came back home and as you said saw that the rules of the world didn’t apply to him
and then the rules of the world struck him down so hard that he ended up getting lynched and having his tongue cut out.
And I think this film is so powerful and so amazing because of,
that way of enunciate in the film that all of these characters journeys as you said to episodic it’s dreamy it’s but it’s cohesive because of that because of how,
these people act in relation to the rules of the wall.

Stu Willis:
[1:26:51] And history you know Jackson 3 hap hap Jackson talks about his parents his parents before them and he wants to leave his children to get the sense of continuity in the shadow of the history in the realisation that
it wasn’t that long ago it really wasn’t it was only a couple of generations.

Chas Fisher:
[1:27:13] And that’s where we could be again if we’re not careful.

Stu Willis:
[1:27:22] Visible.

Chas Fisher:
[1:27:23] Yeah I think what this time does really well for the for the white characters is other than Papi the Jamie Henry and Laura don’t see the system that’s a privilege.

Stu Willis:
[1:27:37] I mean I think it I think again tricky word for some time is intersectional in the sense that,
Laura’s experience of being a white woman a very different from him every 6. From being a white man but also very different,
physical and identity politics for lack of a better word because it’s also same as experience as a different from Florence being a black.
And half a man of their generation you know because it ends with hat actually buying his own.
Farm you know if you get the feeling that they’re going to break out of it but these things take,
time in the Philippines hopefully unlike the novel the novel this didn’t happen the end of the film is runs out mute but 10,
finding way to get to Germany,
I’m eating his wife and his son and it’s quite a few years yet it looks like 3 years later that he made it there is a sense of hope at the end of the film.

Chas Fisher:
[1:28:44] Yeah definitely I mean sense of tragedy that is definitely optimistic like the fact that it ends with runs out mutilated but.
Going to meet his interracial son and it and embrace a life wear,
he is not defined by his grace as we are very optimistic given everything that we’ve seen before.

Stu Willis:
[1:29:10] The pictures of pythons reticulated partly because the structure itself isn’t is shaped,
Mike manaria port is very pleasant to Planet of the Apes plot driven one size plots kick into gear you know,
all started with a damn all the stuff about killing you know I got to reclaim going until you stopped Cobra and all that stuff my phone is a lot more nebulous and you can hear is talking about it as never was but it’s unify through that,
world experience of the characters and I I think I should have said this a beginning but what I kind of need to acknowledge that the difficulty of talking about a film that’s about the historical,
experience of people,
are black Americans in Lake Southern middle of Mississippi and white Americans pop,
when Americans in Southern Mississippi as an Australian white male but I am very far removed from those experience you know so,
I buy no I only can kind of take the text on face value on 4th for better or for worse rather than turns of this possibly a whole bunch of other stuff and I’m missing from the film and not doing just as too but it on Netflix going what.

Chas Fisher:
[1:30:25] Yep I imagine we may have a lot of African American listeners screaming into the headphones like wake up you idiot that’s not what the film is about it all.

Stu Willis:
[1:30:36] And if they do please send in your.
Key back or play I think it’s time to move on to the lobster.

The Lobster

[1:30:46] Most definitely looking at our would be looking for which I like one pound is very,
is very focused in fact I think what is very interesting about the lobster is how our house film help 3 plot,
party and gonorrhea goal orientated it is.

[1:31:09] And children and the dog,
is my brother he was here a couple of years ago he didn’t make it as you understand from your brother’s experience.

Chas Fisher:
[1:31:51] Just a heads up to a listen is that the lobster has some very sexually explicit language so once again if that’s not your bag feel free to skip ahead to the next chapter on.

[1:32:12] Do you do you want to try and summarise the lobster or shall I.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:17] I think.
The box is really easy to see sunrise in that basically will tell you this it’s a I mean it’s absurd it’s coming this famous over it in right down to the performance style very observant,
dystopian black comedy,
I am corrected period and by August Leonard come up with I’m just going to ruin his name and it in a world where,
in a world where single people given 45 days too many swirl single people give in 45 days to find a romantic partner or the going to be turned into animals and set free.
That is the setup of the film Colin Farrell David is our kind of protagonist,
Jessica is but the very first instance this something that happens to him his wife chooses to leave him for another man,
mea for David is arrested in escorted to this mysterious hotel which is kind of like a really scary Grand Budapest Hotel.

[1:33:19] That’s when we learn the kind of War of the rules well the hotel manager will say you’ve got 45 days to find a partner or you’ll be turned into an animal,
and we learn that the dog is coming David is his brother who failed the last.
Answer me through the first half of the film is David in the rule the very particular rules and rituals,
of this hotel trying to find a partner and when he realises that he’s going to be unable to he escapes.
I miss you spoilers,
escaped into the forest where he runs into the loans and the loners are the inverse of the people in the hotel the loan is allowed to not have relationships.

[1:34:02] By the way any romantic or sexual relations between owners are not permitted and any such as are punished is that clear.
Can I have a conversation with, of course you can
so long as there is no flirting or anything like that that applies to dance nights as well
it wasn’t by yourself that’s why we only play electronic music.

What happens when I can speak is getting a bit kiss.
What’s the record this luscious lips of the razor on the lips of another loner my first my kiss each other as a couple of days ago now
the cost for deep in there still in pain or f let me know.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:49] What can I can clarify one point because it’s not that he arbitrary bumps into them.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:54] No he doesn’t he fix them out.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:56] All the people who are staying in the hotel can win extra days before they are turned into an animal so they win more,
opportunity to find love and to escape this fate by hunting down loners in the forest.

Stu Willis:
[1:35:15] An extra day for each person so he is fully where there exists three when he escapes the hotel he makes a choice to hunt them down and then we see this.

Chas Fisher:
[1:35:25] And we don’t really understand who the loan is I until he joins them I think one of them they’re wonderful things that this film does is.
The information about the rules of the world that chooses to reveal and the information it chooses to just say you make up your own mind as an audience member how this works.

Stu Willis:
[1:35:44] And I think what is also great about the loan is is initially you think they might be the kind of rebellion the The Freedom Fighters in this universe but they’re not there just another system there the Auntie system but they still system.

Chas Fisher:
[1:35:58] Exactly.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:00] And not mature that start their your choice to Dave is presented,
is will he stab himself will he blind himself with a steak knife in order to be with the woman that he’s now falling in love with,
what is the dramatic question of the film ends with the pressure rumours into that point but the antagonism in this is is
fantastic I mean we’ve obviously all the pressure cooker of the 45 days a very clear goal weird rules of the world so the main comes in and rub herself against all the all the bird the single people in all do that in a row that they’re not allowed to masturbate
anything do they get their hands put in the toaster.

[1:36:42] I imagine you know that masturbation is not permitted in the rooms or any other area of the hotel
I’m going to the gym brought to my attention.

[1:36:58] Were you looking at a photograph while you’re masterbating what did the photograph show.

[1:37:07] Naked woman on a horse in the country.
I’m sure that tosses once a week and cardio man just like you.

Chas Fisher:
[1:37:43] I really like you said it’s wonderfully absurdist but you do very much get the.
Did you read that this the oppression this with this world in forces.
On the people you know the day that their choices seem to be either find love and adhere to the rules of this world or.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:08] Oh you expel.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:09] Get turned into an animal or you become your expelled then you become a loner.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:15] No I mean I didn’t turn you in your expelled as an animal if you choose you can run away and be a loner but then will hunt you and turn you into an animal when you won’t get to choose what animal you are.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:25] The title of the film refers to the animal that common Paris character chooses to to be turned into,
one of the most fascinating bit to the film for me and look I think I asked you as a illiterate filmgoer,
I’m always interested in the rules of the world and that’s why I think this particular part of this exploration interests me but when they are when he’s joined the loan is one of the ways the day,
economically support themselves because their there they’re out in the woods living,
by themselves and as you say it’s another system where there are loud and even encouraged to masterbate but they are not allowed to fall in love because it’s the rules of the loan is it has to be in rebellion to,
the rules of the prevailing Society but in order to get the necessities that they need to live they,
dress themselves up as normal people clean themselves up do their hair get dressed in normal clothes and pretend to be couples and walk into the city.
To buy essentials.

[1:39:35] And the bits when they’re in the city pretending to be couples is amazing to me because it did shows.
What is the,
the ultimate objective of the society like let’s say in the hotel if you’d actually Found Love early on he would have gone out into the society to be allowed to function relatively normally but they’re in the shopping mall
and the cops come and query you.

[1:40:03] Liza are you here a long good morning I’ve said no I’m here with my partner she’s inside one of the stories shopping right now can I see your certificate.
Apartment keeps it in her clothes you see I am losing it all the time I see and what store is she shopping.

[1:40:30] Of course you can.
Sorry darling I have such a cute right if pain relief ointment I bought you this one I hope it’s the one you’re looking for that’s wonderful do can I have my certificate please.
Course darling would you like to see my naughty officer.

Chas Fisher:
[1:40:55] Rather than targeting terrorists or people in hoodies or racial eprofiling there there to Target single people to make sure that they’re not functioning outside of the societal rules.

Stu Willis:
[1:41:08] Yes that is good I’m in it jump back to the first half of the film,
this relates to pressures and also something we haven’t talked about that much because lies and secrets,
you know being a form of pressure on the character and a very good just very simple way to make cat lead characters in dilemmas,
but one thing I want to say is it no point does this character to ever feel that overcoming challenging the system,
possible I guess we feel that maybe the loan is cause a humping as long as we think I can escape become a loner and then what we discover is that the loner as learners have their own system and so really there’s no escape it may be becoming an animal,
does very good job of having enforcement but parallel so there’s another character played by Ben we sure are we don’t really know the names of these characters I think it’s just got those blue man I think,
is Robert paid by John C Reilly so no sleep man,
call him out because he thought you’ve got a limp he wants to his wife had a limpet she’s dead now you need to find someone else.

[1:42:14] Newcastle Jessica yes I saw I think that’s a woman with a limp is just sprained ankle.
Chatterbox ignore me again in a few days that’s a shame.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:24] The end up liking this girl who gets random nose bleeds and basically he starts hitting himself,
againsting forcing himself to fake nose bleeding so he can connect the nosebleed woman and it works and they go to the next level there are levels in this they go to a hotel room together to prove that there will take their relationship to the next level,
and everyone’s like there is such a good match because he also has nose bleeds and this is a theme of the film looking for your appropriate match futsal and very soon is kinda late superficiality.

Chas Fisher:
[1:42:59] Yep I mean I love that one of the levels is that they give them as a couple to see if they’re going to work as a couple they give them a child for a couple of weeks.

Stu Willis:
[1:43:08] They put them under pressure and then I put them on a joke by themselves to put the under pressure.

Chas Fisher:
[1:43:14] I’m in this whole film is making a comment on what is love in our contemporary Society like it is love a construct but anyway sorry.

Stu Willis:
[1:43:25] That’s um,
and we see a lot of the rules of the world through these characters like Robert John C Reilly he’s got masturbating sweet burnt his hand there is another woman desperate to his like butter biscuit desperate for anyone.

[1:43:41] One night.

[1:44:04] There are some excuses that no one can argue if he thought some excuses are without doubt better than others and that was a really good one,
you forgot to Bob I want you to give them to him whenever you want to water but something.
Give you a blowjob when u fuk me over swallow after flu shot.

Stu Willis:
[1:44:36] Everyone kind of desperation can’t turns everyone up even though there’s no she’s going to turn into an animal and she calls,
Colin Farrell David in doesn’t answer cause he’s not around and and she basically said she’s going to had said earlier that she’s going to jump off a building the building to kill herself I become an animal,
during that time,
David has decided that he’s going to win the affections of the heartless woman we’ve been told that she’s heartless answered the whole things he’s been in he’s been inspired,
yeah we’ve been showing that she’s heartless cause he beats up a loner he’s been spotted by John seduction of the nosebleed woman with aching nose bleeding by David deciding to pretend that he is also,
heartless and this is a series of escalation that pressure his commitment,
pretend to be heartless this is in this is a beautiful sequence in terms of pressuring an antagonistic for us is so basically his,
I don’t say friend but a biscuit woman jumps out of the building and horribly is lying on the ground with a bullet point but she’s not completely dead and she’s screaming out and David uses the opportunity to start talking to the heartless woman.

Chas Fisher:
[1:45:47] Demonstrate how heartless he is.

Stu Willis:
[1:45:49] Yes I mean he later joins are in a Jacuzzi and she had like an olive from her Martini and then starts choking and he just doesn’t nothing.

[1:46:24] Rihanna match.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:27] Did those two things already challenge his commitment to they’re not that hard like the escalating and then there is a nothing great little moment where they run into those wee man and has been woman.

[1:46:39] This is our new daughter and Elizabeth Elizabeth kiss.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:48] David is like I hate kids in affection and kicks Ronnie right.

[1:46:53] Elizabeth you should know you’re not allowed to be more like your father.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:58] The bat scene is challenging his commitment to the flights pressuring him the obstacle over the course of its that the goal over the course of the sequence is to,
win the Hollis woman’s affection so they can go on and get out of the hotel and
there is a series of obstacles in the way of that but some of them my coach they choking his actually have to actively do something but it’s a source of pressure and then this will lead to the final scene with him in the heartless 100% convinced,
and then she basically tells him how she killed David brother in dog form and how he was whimpering and dying in your like I wonder if she is,
I wonder if she’s bullshiting any goes into the bathroom to find his brother and dog form brutally murdered by the heartless woman.
And then she go and he’s crying and she’s like well this is a lie and she intends to drag him to the hotel manager and then he’s going to get punished by putting in bin turn into another animal,
and at this point he makes the decision to escape all those precious built up and they got escalated escalated so when she killed her brother he couldn’t pretend anymore that he wasn’t,
person that she needed him to be which is heartless and it comes this beautiful little sequence of him escaping in eventually,
shooting the heartless woman and turning into into an animal and then that weed him to joining learners in the woods that’s the big decision the middle of the film.

Chas Fisher:
[1:48:23] Can I articulate those initial sequences in terms of rules of the world or human,
in contrasted the world is an antagonist the first sequence he’s largely passive he’s been picked up by police he’s been put into the the hotel he’s doing what everyone is telling him to do,
right but that second c.

Stu Willis:
[1:48:44] Yes he’s following the rules.

Chas Fisher:
[1:48:47] Yes the second sequence he’s very active he still following the rules and pursuing what the the social diktats says that he should be pursuing but he’s active in it you just described to the great lengths,
against such a massive antagonistic pressures that he goes to to adhere to the rules of the world until he breaks and at the midpoint says I’m not going to adhere to the rules of this world anymore.

Stu Willis:
[1:49:14] I’m going to I’m going to escape that’s beautifully articulated,
and so if you think what’s the inner Society of loners where they the leader and played by I can’t believe so do I can’t speak French it also.
Inspector said the leader of the loan is she.
Welcome to me let out the rules no this is the bloody kiss,
best two people caught kissing service last emails with razor blades made them get she said that clearly what the steak in this world and in a way states of pressures on there right there force you to do something else takes you do it meme app kind of like a.
Surprisingly late revelation for this you know goal States urgency I’m in there,
yo steaks the kind of related to obstacles and pressures create agencies I mean they’re both for what were the golden the antagonist states are a form of antagonist it is is a form of antagonist,
very good so what’s the worst that can happen to David in this environment,
he falls in love and then you have to keep it secret I mean it seemed so obvious but it beautifully orchestrated.
The end of falling in love with a woman that goes with them on the me this Raid 2,
I know it’s tempting the waiting to see thinking of the right I think they do that first I know at some point they they trade.

Chas Fisher:
[1:50:37] They going to the city going to the city and in what year.

Stu Willis:
[1:50:40] I know I’m talking about no I want to give you a Minions this is a great little scene with a character is not in David’s not at all,
the loan is going to the hotel to sabotage it right David decides he wants to go to see the nose we woman and man,
my friends and then basically he reveals that John has been faking to her so David at that point is the antagonist he is acting up one of his the antagonist in he is basically John has been reveals the truth and tried to see what happened,
other one who’s the leader this is this Virginia spot hope the hotel manager and husband at gunpoint.

[1:51:19] For my height how much do you love her a scale of 1 to 15.

[1:51:35] What is a very impressive score you love her very much indeed would you think we should kill
will be able to live on the round better.

If this woman dies she think you’ll manage on your own or with you get involved with someone else.
Sitting in the room relaxing.

[1:52:12] Be quiet.

Stu Willis:
[1:52:30] Basically that seen it all the Berry antagonists to these two minor characters to see whether the husband is willing to kill the wife rather than sacrifice himself.

[1:52:55] And he does he pull the trigger it turns out it’s blank because that’s the best form a pressure right her the wife realising that the husband doesn’t love her that much he’s not prepared.
And then they leave and that’s it.
Prettiest so good because and it worked because of the antagonist it forces but now you can jump to the secret relationship.

Chas Fisher:
[1:53:17] No no I’m not jumping to secret relationship I want to talk about that sequence because what it does is it gives.
The audience the feeling that wants his join the loan is the loan is have a goal of overthrowing the rules of the world.
That is what that that is what the entire sequence is about it is the.
Loan is attacking the hotel and proving that their systems.

Stu Willis:
[1:53:47] Better but they’re actually.

Chas Fisher:
[1:53:49] Sorry that hotels is bullshit not that alone is one it’s right and once they’ve done that is leaving you in a kind of,
good place positively overall because it’s like the the antagonistic forces are defeatable and,
internally David and Rachel Weisz is character short sided woman have met in a falling in love.
And is then that the rules of the loners rise up against David and the short sighted woman.
That’s me trying to you dare dare to talk about the short side woman getting blinded.

Stu Willis:
[1:54:32] Ok yes I do initially gets will they get caught that kind of the pressure on nose and all the be having a secret relationship.

[1:54:40] We developed a code so that we can communicate with each other even in front of the others without them knowing what we are saying.
When we turn I had to the left it means I love you more than anything in the world and when we turn our heads to the right it means watch out where in danger.
We had to be very careful in the beginning not to mix up I love you more than anything in the world with watch out we’re in danger.

Stu Willis:
[1:55:08] And then going into the city give them the opportunity to show their affection to each other but do too much now catch of the attention of a leader and that is exactly what happens right the Freedom they are called,
and what happens if the the short-sighted woman is taken by the leader,
and actually Domain who turns up with a double Agent it’s family story about how they’re planning on running away together and,
the we delete her to a Optometry or a certain saying that she’ll get her eyes fixed so as an antagonist she literally changes,
Rachel she physical changes Rachel Rachel blind,
and then it set up the final dramatic question of will David accept it as you know it and previously this is previously the whole body language they develop top secret,
communication scheme of body language of pointy ears of a nose or whatever she’s blind they can no longer communicate,
so this is the final test feasibility to fall in love will he want to be her companion if they don’t have matching attribute in a world where it’s like we both have no please let’s get married yeah we both have Live Life Get Married you with a partner someone to kill mites
kill dogs that get mad yeah you know and the answer is we think yes right.

Chas Fisher:
[1:56:29] Yeah I can can I can I just,
go back quickly to that that decision by the loan is needed to take short sided woman to have Lasik Surgery,
yes our intention is to buy in the woman but even if it was to actually fix her eyes and not destroy the relationship the David and short sided woman have.
The thing is that David and short-sighted woman have been falling in love in breach of the rules of the loan is and I’ve been falling in love along the parameters lay down by this,
by the,
the rules at the hotel in it or you find something in common that means you can fall in love like nosebleed woman and,
limping man punching himself in the face where’s these to have a genuine love connection but it it is formed on the basis of them both being short sighted so even if,
short sighted women’s,
eyes we’re gonna actually be fixed she wouldn’t want that because under the rules of this world that might mean that she loses the love relationship she has with David,
what’s worse is that chick is blinded so she is left alone in the world and unable to communicate do anyway.

Stu Willis:
[1:57:46] Exactly,
right to put up with the most pressure on the relationship the end of the film them correcting her eyes does not put enough pressure on the character on him to make those final the final choice,
OK I’ll get Lasik Surgery that’s not what they want that’s not the goal of the antagonist to this point and,
ultimately David makes the decision to kill the leader and to lead Rachel way into the city and they can be a companion.

Chas Fisher:
[1:58:18] But their city will only accept them as companions if they are both blind.

Stu Willis:
[1:58:22] I don’t think the I don’t think the city comments on that I think it’s been feeling.

Chas Fisher:
[1:58:28] I know it it does yeah it doesn’t but he feels very part of the rules of the world that these two will only be allowed to live together in the city.

Stu Willis:
[1:58:37] Vince anyone.

Chas Fisher:
[1:58:38] If he stabbed his knives out his eyes out with the state.

Stu Willis:
[1:58:41] Outside it whether they can convince anyone that they genuinely and love,
is there for um in the film ends with the question of will he do it there doesn’t actually answer it.
And ends with her waiting and waiting in the lake or maybe he’s realised he’s not prepared to go that far I have the pressures on the on him meant that he’s made the decision when he’s not prepared to sacrifice his site for someone else.

Chas Fisher:
[1:59:08] But you know it sound it mean it isn’t absurd film but it hopefully we’ve demonstrated how it credibly builds the antagonistic forces that that is the binary decision that he comes to at the end of the film The different,
rules of the different worlds in which he inhabits.
Have put pressure on him to the point where this is a very very credible decision we don’t know which way is going to go.
But they did fit.

Stu Willis:
[1:59:39] It’s worth noting that he was part of the system at the beginning we don’t know whether you was a Believer or not he just accepted it as it being the way things are,
which I guess is something you could say about mudbound Henry just was like these are the wavy this is the order of things.
Where is I think in Minority Report and even dawn of plant of the Apes of wasn’t a this is the way I think think over and whatever the.

Chas Fisher:
[2:00:06] Gary Oldman.

Stu Willis:
[2:00:07] The governor,
Bayside is the way of things this is the way things I don’t think Malcolm or Cesar accepted that and I think what is interesting about David’s journey I think it’s credible that he doesn’t do it but he kind of reject both,
systems as well I think that’s the strength of the film you don’t know it’s genuinely ambiguous but it works as ambiguity and not confusion because he either he does it or he doesn’t.
Is it romantic for him to do it or not is a him not being blind and still loving her more romantic than him choosing to blame herself,
that’s be great questions and there about 12 you as well a very a worldview a very specific fictional absurd place.
But we use it to reflect on our own reality you know.

Chas Fisher:
[2:01:02] So we’ve got here a quick note about other genres of films where the world is the primary antagonistic Force and it’s interesting Lee High School film.

Systems And Genres

Stu Willis:
[2:01:14] That’s the main one that kind of came to mind.

[2:01:31] Enroute.

[2:01:47] You’re going to be really friends for the next four years.

Chas Fisher:
[2:01:59] This can be presented in various different ways like,
you know brick is the most heightened version of that where it says you are gangster setting within a high school but the fact that that works shows that high school can be a world.

Stu Willis:
[2:02:12] Mean Girls.

Chas Fisher:
[2:02:14] Yep Mean Girls 10 Things I Hate About You easy a Superbad the point is that,
those films work because high school has to find rules and often the protagonist job is not actually 2,
it did protagonist arts out how do I fit into these rules and they often come to the point where
I win by changing the world challenging the world and changing the rules work there did you know girls with glasses can be pretty or nerds can.

Stu Willis:
[2:02:48] Be cool.

Chas Fisher:
[2:02:49] Zab Judah.

Stu Willis:
[2:02:50] Girls whatever are these stupid binaries.

Chas Fisher:
[2:02:54] But it’s 8 I’m not limiting at high school terms I’m just saying we we’ve chosen we’ve looked in depth of 4 different genres very very different genres and there a hole.
There a story arcs where if the characters trying to change the world around them.

Stu Willis:
[2:03:14] I’m in many sports movies I mean I came to that for my Friday Night Lights which is a high school sports movie but you know sports being a system possibly.

Chas Fisher:
[2:03:24] Moneyball is definitely that.

Stu Willis:
[2:03:26] Yeah well I’m in gangster movies probably you know the sense of security and inevitability.

Chas Fisher:
[2:03:34] I definitely think those gangster stories words about someone trying to escape the gangster world and getting drawn back in.

Stu Willis:
[2:03:40] Yeah I mean don’t either maybe Donnie Brasco you know,
what’s and whether or not things are inevitable I think in my van we talked about it but it’s finished eating idea when you constructing your story is a writer you’re in mudbound I think unfortunately what happens to ones I was kind of at a certain point is inevitable.

Chas Fisher:
[2:03:58] Unless he succumbs.

Stu Willis:
[2:04:00] Unless he submits to the system.
SMS if you if you didn’t submit to the system in the system going to punish him in and I think that’s true of what things do Mel lobster is the question is does David submit to the system does he escape it or does he overthrow it and I think
I don’t think you ever question thinks it again over throw it in the film it’s implied that maybe this system of couples is around the world.

Chas Fisher:
[2:04:24] Other than the sequence where they break into the hotel it’s on a very small scale but that is exactly what they’re doing is trying their objective is to overthrow the system.

Stu Willis:
[2:04:36] Yeah I’ll bet yeah they’re definitely bring throwing sticks and rocks into the water and even something as nihilistic as,
I mean it properly like the road is very much it’s like a survival film plus a system film,
and the question is today so come to the nihilism of that world do they maintain their morality or not.
You know and I hope and I think the film ends with hope system is kind of in its own way over thrown at the end of the road.

[2:05:07] You got two choices here you can stay here with me Papa.
You need to keep up the road.

Chas Fisher:
[2:05:30] I think I’m I’m just going to Wawa talking about this I’m going to jump to my key learning from systems is I think from a craft perspect.

Wrap Up & Key Learnings

Stu Willis:
[2:05:38] I thought that’s what we were doing.

Chas Fisher:
[2:05:40] Yeah yeah I think just to tell the audience so that’s what we’re doing from a craft perspective I’ve learnt two things to ask if my story is it a character objective 2.
Change the rules of the world or not,
which is not to say you can’t have system antagonist where that isn’t a character objective but I think it changes the shape of the story that you’re telling and you know we looked at Minority Report where,
all sequences except for the fourth and final act of the film.
I’m not about the John anderton trying to overthrow the system so just,
parking map for Clarity but what we came to in nature and Supernatural in part 3 about determining how defeatable is your antagonists becoming really important to me,
really clear is a valuable Insight because your your protagonist will act differently in the face of.
And the and what tactics are available to them to achieve an objective.

Stu Willis:
[2:06:53] Yes it is the possibility of overcoming the system that literally changes what goals you can have and which allows you to change the kind of goals you have in the tactics you use cheaper if you believe,
you need to do it all.
But you can and it needs to be for the audience to do it if there was a hypothetical version of The Lobster where he’s somehow I don’t blow up a computer in the world changed Beeliar WA
where is if you get the sense that it was limited to a country and that all he had to do with escape across the border that’s on him over throwing the system but it seemed escaping in a very permanent way.

Chas Fisher:
[2:07:32] And it’s why I was so impressed on this analysis at the decisions the craft and writing decisions in Minority Report to limit precogs to just a city,
it really defined the scale of antagonism and gave it limits.
If John anderton wasn’t heavily invested in protecting pre-crime he could have just escaped Washington DC.

Stu Willis:
[2:07:58] Yeah is this a free crime pattern jurisdiction outside of the state absolutely.

Chas Fisher:
[2:08:03] Well he’s in his head had his eyes changed he could just escape but his objective was to prove his own innocence because he believed in pre-crime.

Stu Willis:
[2:08:12] Fantastic observation where is the option to escape when they do kind of in War of the Worlds.

Chas Fisher:
[2:08:26] No but they had they had options very early on do they interact or not like the inciting incident is the meeting of those two worlds and then making decisions do we collaborate or not.
And is there collaboration that actually leads to the escalating antagonistic pressures with in both social structures and between them.
Do you have some key learnings to.

Stu Willis:
[2:08:50] 20 linings some very interesting stuff whether it’s different from what we started with a kiss the
can’t just the way we’ve talked about it thinking about it for the point of view at the end where do you want to take your character to at the end this is Ray kroc related
and thinking about how you sequence your events in order for that to happen is very,
useful and I’ve ever said we seeing things that actually work over the length of the run time they’re all good examples but I’m sure you’ve all seen,
films in which the characters should have turned away turned around and to the left all the they should have literally been crushed under the might of the antagonistic forces that you can escalate
think something that came out of a lobster with the power of letting characters have secrets and lies and and pretend for the lack of the word make pudding,
navigate to light and then pressurising them for that line at the whole sequence about it and I’m sure if we looked at it mudbound has that,
have someone sequences like that whether I mean obviously Jamie does player that runs out and know that lies challenge them challenge intelligent to ultimately the truth of their friendship is brought to light.

Chas Fisher:
[2:10:00] Rondel doesn’t tell his family about his son at Laura.
And Jamie hi there there are a fair from Henry.
I think you’re heading on something there and all of a different thesis is kind of interconnect but you articulating it in the,
the antagonistic forces have to pressure the protagonist to lead to the end and the end of the film
working is kind of alluding to what I was getting to write back in part 1 in saying the antagonistic forces shape the journey and shape of the character
in the eyes of the audience like in the eyes of the right of a character appears on page one preformed but not in the eyes of the audience.

Stu Willis:
[2:10:44] Yeah it’s funny how we ended up going coming to binary choices and number of x given that we want to do it is its own specific topic,
and maybe cuz we don’t ejaculate why these choices are important for using them as,
I mean are we employments a fait accompli and hopefully be done a good job about how specifically those forces Lee to it that final choice I hope so.
Realise the people be like and stuff happens and the magistrate.
And hopefully it’s like stuff happens then more stuff happens at it’s worse and more stuff happens it’s worse because I get there anyways.

[2:11:24] I guess it’s the worst possible and this is a hard thing to end on now we should come with a rare if I could versions of that binary choice littered throughout the films but it’s the.
Biggest most Grandis expression of that at the very end everything the ones our final choices do we heat does he submit to the system,
or does he stand proudly,
wrap this versions that him choosing to walk through the back door is him choosing to submit to the system and that comes along and there’s probably versions where he chooses not to but alternately they they give an escalating to the worst possible version of that the lobster him,
David deciding whether or not he stabs himself in the eye is a version of the joys of do I lie to about the heart to the heartless woman but I’m heartless,
it’s that same choice and we seen him a customer choice where he wasn’t prepared to live with a woman who killed her brother,
his brother he wasn’t repaired to live with a woman who killed his brother in a dog form,
for the sake of the relationship the question is whether he will prepare to stab himself in the I don’t actually I think we
kind of indirect we have and I’m trying to sum it up those choices they make at the end of the film are in various forms asks the presented with forms of those choices either where they make different choices
no no no no no no ok yes.

Chas Fisher:
[2:12:43] Hello all is lost yet.

Stu Willis:
[2:12:46] Or they make the right choices but they the moral pressure on them,
easy to stand up when you’re too easy to protect from Cell and pretend that you’re a good man when your life is not on the line,
is the case on the Jamie and as soon as his life on the line and ones elves life on the line jmx different choice so yes I think that’s how pressure works in these story.

Chas Fisher:
[2:13:16] Cool well we hope you’ve enjoyed the first four parts of exploration on antagonist are next one is to actually look at.
And I’m going to throw out just an inaccurate term non narrative films,
to see how this pans up and also answer your questions that these four parts may have raised so please do send in any questions preferably an audio form but you can write them in,
look to our website for,
details as to how to ask his questions and thanks to our Patriots who have inspired us to turn what was proposed to be a 1 episode,
in 25 so they are to blame and particularly,
are patreon Jack you ask is the inciting incident question but also call Sandra Rob Chris Yoakam and prob thanks guys.

Stu Willis:
[2:14:18] You’re all.

Chas Fisher:
[2:14:20] And thanks to,
I’m going to totally butcher this pronunciation but Habib musings who is our latest patient who in fact,
pledged and supported us while we were recording this very episode tooth so thanks extra special thanks to my room using this.

Stu Willis:
[2:14:39] If you feel so compelled to argue with Chaz and myself about anything on this episode or anything in general you can find many ways to contact us
at draught Highton in there you’ll also find the show notes for this episode as well as links to share the word and and rating with us on Apple podcasts and
if you’re feeling even more supportive you can also find links to our Patrion page.

[2:15:04] Having lunch at The Plastics was like leaving the actual welding and drink rule the world had a lot of rules it’s at writing task 2 days in a row and you can eat a week,
so I guess you pick today.
I was wearing today I’m getting over the flu.
Oh yes my dear.
Things guys like someone could be wrong.
48 over 20 = x 100 and then you cross multiply and get the value of x whatever.