DZ-51

Dz-51: Antagonists! (Part 3) – Vs Nature

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Intro: Vs Nature

Excerpts:
[0:00] Kindly this elegantly into the next episode so.

Chas Fisher:
[0:03] Elegantly is a strong word.

Stu Willis:
[0:14] Hi I’m Stu Willis.

Chas Fisher:
[0:15] And I’m just Fisher.

Stu Willis:
[0:17] And welcome to trust zero a podcast where to swim right is emerging filmmakers what he wanted to call us pro to work out what makes great screenplays work.

Chas Fisher:
[0:27] And welcome to Part 3 of our epic deep dive into antagonist Part 3 of a proposed 5 part series although who knows where we will end up this episode.
What we tentatively called versus nature antagonists where we are doing the grey All Is Lost and Contagion and I think will also be addressing maybe some Supernatural films as well at the end.

Stu Willis:
[0:56] I know I just want to say why Supernatural is I think what we will discover / have discovered that the reason we want to discuss Supernatural in this episode is Supernatural get seeing is a subset of the vs nature kind of.

Excerpts:
[0:56] I know I just want to say why Supernatural is I think what we will discover flash have discovered then the reason we want to discuss Supernatural in this episode is Supernatural get seeing is a subset of the vs nature kind of.

Stu Willis:
[1:10] Central conflict.
But I think what we have discovered in doing his podcast twice is it there is actually some key differences between Supernatural antagonists and big picture.
Nature antagonists and I think it’s actually something bit I’m going to kill you what to talk about which is sentience VS non sent you.

Chas Fisher:
[1:27] Well thank you,
securing me up there Stu I would just quickly say to a listen as if you haven’t listens to parts 1 and 2 I encourage you to go back and listen to them because we’re going to make connections and references to stuff we’ve already discussed in those.

Stu Willis:
[1:45] We very much building on what we’ve already discussed and refining I’d only be doing a lot of thinking over the last however long it’s been.

Chas Fisher:
[1:53] And it’s it’s cool we are actually learning as we go with each part which is interesting so yes we chose in nature antagonist and,
I think the key distinguishing feature of the antagonist that we selected in these films is it those antagonists are not sentient they don’t have.
Yeah they don’t have agency they’re not making choices but I think importantly for a protagonist is it they can’t be bargained.
With that removes the choices that the protagonist can make in terms of dealing with these,
antagonistic forces and this is where some Supernatural films may come in is where those antagonists are not sentient,
I think the types of supernatural films where they have sent into antagonist we wouldn’t fall into this.
How to rip films that we’re discussing.

Nature And Fate

Stu Willis:
[3:12] So I’m in cos another way of thinking about vs nature a little touch on his is maybe in some ways it’s about fate.
More than it is about another force if I don’t we kinda going off tangent a little bit as we do.

Excerpts:
[3:26] But.

Stu Willis:
[3:27] The reason is horse’s name of nature don’t have the ability to negotiate they they do not necessarily have wants or if they do have a want it is a very specific they’re not shifting practically not shifting,
golds the 12 the alien is to feed the want of Leatherface is to kill the really.

Excerpts:
[3:40] Goals the 12 the alien is to feed the want of Leatherface is to kill the really.

Stu Willis:
[3:47] Primitive primal.
Desires I’m like the characters in three billboards in which their wants and goals are very.
Complex but not leave me wants and needs and so I think what what is enquire.
Anything to Paris in the last exactly it is about Supernatural is ghost towns because ghost films or off when about.
It in human things that have human car rustic since about satisfying then wants that’s how you defeat the ghost you kind of satisfy it’s one so there is a whole spectrum in there.

Chas Fisher:
[4:21] And interestingly I’m going to come back to this later but as soon as in a ghost film they figure out what the ghost want is and there is a identifiable way of.
Winning for the protagonist the fear that you feel for the protagonist and.
The weight the decisions that the protagonist have a completely different.

Stu Willis:
[4:46] Yep so if it seems like a good opportunity to address a question that will sent you my mind about patrons and listen Ascot about part 1 does he sent us a question about the difference between want and need so apparently we were talking about it a lot.

Wants Vs Need

[5:54] I don’t want to entirely get into the question as it relates to development that feels like it might be something we might come back to in episode 5 or back matter this whole series.
The one I want to get into his yeah I tend to agree with you Skype cuz I’ve been thinking about the difference between want vs need.

Excerpts:
[6:12] What.

Stu Willis:
[6:14] I am going to say this is gonna be a running thing in this particular episode is that want is absolutely important for you better activate goal what is it that they want what is it that they’re after.
I mean I think it’s something that you can define more interestingly as a character question.

Excerpts:
[6:30] You know.

Chas Fisher:
[6:31] Yeah I.

Stu Willis:
[6:32] It’s something that the character doesn’t even have to be aware of the film can choose a way to frame it but the character is probably suck on has no idea of there.

Excerpts:
[6:32] The character doesn’t have to be aware of the film can choose a way to frame it but the character is probably suck on as no idea of there.

Stu Willis:
[6:42] Of their need it or not we get the better if there.
Unconsciously aware and they need it answered by the end of the film and I think the reason it is difficult to reticulate.
What the needs are is as we talked about in our car just sequences episode needs a character questions which means they are by nature,
kind of fuzzy,
wants can be clearly articulated in a demonstrate able form and the job of the antagonist this is getting into my pieces of this episode of the antagonistic forces as a whole is to pressure the character name change on today,
don’t change until that watered or educated use a David mamet term and then he’s then need being fulfilled but in the.
The most of the story what is driving a thing is the characters wants and the way the antagonistic forces affect those wants more specifically in terms of putting obstacles in the way of the characters achieving those goals.

Chas Fisher:
[7:41] I think what you you put your finger on a.
Part of me believe that Scott’s issue is perhaps with wording whereas I think the ideas behind the one / need paradigm still work and.

Stu Willis:
[7:55] It’s interesting that you choose want / need not want vs need because I think want vs need when I get to Murphy.

Chas Fisher:
[8:00] Yep because.

Stu Willis:
[8:01] Flash needs to separate things for the character as much better way to think about it.

Chas Fisher:
[8:05] What the difference I think you put your finger cleanly on it is that a lot of their the character journeys that we want a protagonist to go through their underwear,
there’s not a one it’s not something that chasing after is something that the narrative is pushing them,
towards an and we’ve discovered in previous episodes you one of your thesis is,
sisu is about the idea of pressure in a we’re putting our characters under pressure cookers so that they make decision they forced to make decisions that they don’t want to make now my thesis wise I think there.
Antagonistic forces can be divided into internal and external.
Forces so broadly speaking you’ve got.
Plot antagonistic forces where you know that there’s more that obstacle to the clearly defined one of a character.
And then you’ve got other antagonistic forces that are going towards changing who the character is internally and.
That is an antagonistic forcing that it’s an agent of change but as we referred to in part 1 I think Obi-Wan is an antagonistic force on to Luke.

Stu Willis:
[9:21] But I think obstacle of a G1 talk about a live.ly Abdul that goes between the character and their goal isn’t the only form without antagonistic Force and maybe the main one in the story but it’s not.
For example I don’t think Obi-Wan is an obstacle to Luke getting to his goal in fact I would say he’s enable a he pushes.
Where is laughing pressure.
Presses on a character and I think obstacles can interfere get in the way of the character you’re the job of you as a writer is to orchestrate,
sequencing of events of the Antarctic forces in such a way the character is able to continue.

Excerpts:
[10:00] Ripe.

Stu Willis:
[10:01] You need whether it’s excavation or amplification so I think I’ll be one for me as well I’m going to start referring to I don’t know if I,
start with h i think property for you interesting and systems when we get to that in the next topic which arose he is someone that pulls the characters towards the goal,
is an enabler encourages them there is someone that is kind of a dissuader that is a negative pressure on them and then there is like it’s just pressure we just something to forces that time,
depressed about the ticking clock of time for is is for syndicated acts encouraging them 2 hacked they may not be moving stuck in their Status Quo.

Excerpts:
[10:27] Depressed about the chicken cooking time for is his for syndicated at encouraging them that they may not there may have been stuck in their Status Quo.

Chas Fisher:
[10:37] Undeclared,
like physical of physical or emotional of schools to getting a clearly defined goal like that’s the most common form of antagonistic force but what were saying is that is not the only one and just to summarise.
Very very briefly two of our key learnings from the previous parts is 1 the antagonistic force can change scene by scene or even sequence by sequence depending on.
Not just the antagonist antagonistic force but who the antagonist.
Is an who the protagonist of a particular scene or a particular sequence depending on the needs of the story but then also.
This was my kind of initial view of Die Hard and it’s been reinforced by the homework that we’re about to dive into now where I think.
Your protagonist journey is more defined by the antagonistic forces that the protagonist is pitted against then.
You know there the wants and needs of the protagonist Lake.
Without the antagonistic forces your character there’s no narrative and you need the antagonistic forces to force.
Your protagonist to make decisions and those decisions depending on the the choices that the protagonist makes will lead them on.
Through change or not change you know they do me.
In doing this exercise I think antagonists dick forces and antagonist as an idea.

[12:13] As a narrative tool is actually more important than thinking about protagonists.

Stu Willis:
[12:18] I think it’s everything I meant it.

Excerpts:
[12:23] To say that.

Stu Willis:
[12:24] Quote in full because I found it from David mamet I think we might come back to it’s interesting which is start every time with this is it in viable is voluble in volleyball.

Chas Fisher:
[12:35] Inviolable.

Stu Willis:
[12:37] Available. Every time with this rule the scene must be dramatic in must start because the cure has a problem and I must Coleman 8 with his hero fine against him or herself either thwarted or educated.
Dead another way exists,
and I think for two door educated is the best idea in fact I think the pressure of a story as a whole do antagonistic forces on the character pressure ultimately leave them to be sorted or educated.
At the end of the story.

Excerpts:
[13:06] Right.

Stu Willis:
[13:08] Luke Skywalker At The End Of A New Hope if educated it another way exists which is the force it’s it’s.
He makes a choice which is do put up the little eye peas and then try and that’s how it’s tramatized but he is educated that the force exists you know,
that is the combination of the pressures over the course of the whole story individual scenes as well getting to also have antagonistic forces but it is the building block.
Those actually antagonise forces by necessity is what build the scene right they build the is the beat the chain links there therefore but the butt in the South Park.
King of destroying therefore but the butt is the opposite Coles so I think that’s why I’m going to drive into it’s why I think we should start with All Is Lost.

All Is Lost

[13:58] Cos I think what is fantastic about All Is Lost is that almost all the antagonistic forces that most of the film something on a sea level is not a sequence level in all of life up obstacles there plot right.
The cumulative effect.
Of those and taxtic forces create a pressure on a character to make a choice at the end of the film but I think we’ll get to that when we actually start getting into it sorry.

[14:46] Sorry all is lost as a survival film JC chandor who we really love on the podcast doing them at Robert Redford as our man is lost at sea it is basically a survival film where he wakes up in a yacht.
That is scanning water because it’s collided with a shipping container and there is basically a series of events that escalate such that not only does he have to get on the wifi off that ultimately he has to hope that he is,
reference the way of a shipping channel and is picked up,
go away she’s got no hope of survival I’m really simple fine because it is summarising the film I’m actually just telling the what happens in this phone.

Chas Fisher:
[15:30] Yeah I mean it’s it’s a very beautifully simple film with very very little dialogue.
In it because it is just our man by himself for the entirety of the film and it be the antagonist is pretty much the weather.
You know that depending on whether you’re a sailing expert or not his his knowledge of of sailing but.
Like as you say it’s constant escalation so he wakes up from her,
a freak accident with his boat taking on water he patches up the boat the the the water has damaged his radio he tries to fix his radio then there’s a storm bits of his ship.
A broken it capsizes like he keeps on it’s a very very lot oriented.
Film it’s constantly posing the question of.
Oh shit what do I do now and watching him figure it out through constant escalation.

Stu Willis:
[16:37] But I’ll I’ll I’m in a break this down I’ll try to be as quickly as possible because what I’m saying about obstacles starts right at the very beginning.
What will deal with a not one of the very beginning because there’s a bit of the oh the thing as important as a quote contact but we might come back to that which is that I think there is a super goal or stupid jective to use the acting term which is he’s in a boat he is going on a destination we.
Have to assume he is heading somewhere that is not planning to be on the boat until forever.

Chas Fisher:
[17:07] But we don’t know that.

Stu Willis:
[17:08] But we don’t know that but I think I think there is probably it’s a boat.

Excerpts:
[17:08] But we don’t know that but I think I think there is probably it’s a boat.

Stu Willis:
[17:13] It’s going somewhere you know it’s not.

Chas Fisher:
[17:15] All we know about him is that he is wealthy enough to afford to be on a boat in the middle of nowhere that he’s quite elderly and that he’s.

Excerpts:
[17:15] But that will not stop.

Chas Fisher:
[17:26] White and speaks English.

Stu Willis:
[17:27] And married his wearing a wedding in fact he’s wearing wings on both whether he’s like mitre European right hand left hand he’s got fingers on both so you won’t miss it so the of the idea that there’s obviously something gone along.
But what am I get to is it there is that overall got this just 4 months ago you think there is the implication that there is a destination weather is destination is an emotion one of him running away from whatever the problem.
Is is running away from.

Chas Fisher:
[18:11] And that and that’s an interesting question.

Stu Willis:
[18:13] I’m in that also taps into the great the one I want to get into it though.

Chas Fisher:
[18:17] And I think that’s a question it’s answer by the oh I think that’s why the opening video is so important.

Excerpts:
[18:17] But this.

Stu Willis:
[18:24] Getting insta pot specifics cos I,
kind of when I identify these obstacles are doing and and maybe overidentifying him which is the same as him sleep his goal is to stay asleep but keep the obstacle comes in and it’s the water coming in and waking up.
And that leads him to go outside to see why the water is the body taking on water and then,
but there is the obstacle of this shipping container not just having collided with the boat but it is stuck to the side of the boat that kind of forced together.

Excerpts:
[18:47] But there is the obstacle of this shipping container not just having collided with the boat but it is stuck to the side of the boat that kind of force together.

Stu Willis:
[18:58] Therefore he kind of have to go and get a sea anchor and attach it to the shipping container to put away because he adds drag to it with these c-anca and then he can talk the boat.

[19:11] So doesn’t take in water and then comes around and collect the sea anchor again.
That goal of no longer wedding is needed but then that creates the next problem which is identified by the end of the sequence with a top-down shot of him on a makeshift hammock which is the water boat is still full of water so many question becomes he need to get rid of the water.

Excerpts:
[19:30] Right.

Stu Willis:
[19:31] Victories of.

Chas Fisher:
[19:33] And the electrics of the boda Out 3 has two hand pump it all out.

Stu Willis:
[19:36] Yep so there is he success you managed to hand pump out all the water.

Excerpts:
[19:37] So there is he success you managed to hand pump out all the water.

Stu Willis:
[19:41] My enemy starts drying things but then when he realises he’s got the opportunity to get the radio,
working by basically connecting it to the Electrics on the top of the Mask it clients at the masks we just cuddle became Mimi thing anyway with like how does he climb the Masked and then he sees in the distance the storm.
And then we start the next sequence which is he needs to do this but there is a storm right so he goes let me let me continue on I know you want to hurry up.

Excerpts:
[20:11] No no no cause I want to show you know that because but this is the structure therefore.

Stu Willis:
[20:18] It’s it’s better soon there for us to put on the Storm so sale but he’s thrown off the boat.

[20:29] He’s got a pepper to the boat though and pulls himself on the board,
the boat gets capsized you manage to call out again that he’s been thrown off a second time and this is activation is actually for an off the second time but this second time he has no Kata and the cause then they both smart is busted.

Excerpts:
[20:46] Right.

Stu Willis:
[20:48] He’s actually have to swim around the sale it’s a lot more dangerous even though it’s the same beat and they capsizing beat in the boat is repeated,
the second half of the film when he’s in the micro it’s obviously a lot more dangerous in the life raft he’s forced to actually make a choice with that laugh life raft,
witch is that the whole life raft capsizes and have to make the decision to unzip swim out underneath it and flip it over but essentially there is this whole series of.

Excerpts:
[21:03] Beat we just at the whole life raft capsizes and you have to make the decision to unzip swim out underneath it and flip it over but essentially there is this whole series of.

Stu Willis:
[21:13] Goal obstacle the either the the up the goal is kind of mostly completed but there’s a new obstacle right and.
It is there’s one quite a coincidence actually couple of coinsidence is there’s one to instance and I think coming back to a quinncidence is episode is useful to think about which is basically.
Once he’s kind of the boat’s or corrected in clients on seem somewhat to be dying down he sees it the the both deserve repair that he’s done on the whole as come off and it goes repair it and something smacks in the back of the head,
his head is blacked out.

[21:54] I think the reason thinking about this and just turns a pure obstacle that works even though it’s a coincidence is Dr quinncidence is the obstacle.
Right does that make sense where it any food we go back to those coincidence is.
Episode all is things about putting your character in trouble it’s about the princesses are the obstacle to them achieving that goal.

Chas Fisher:
[22:17] Arguably arguably the the the weather is a coincidence effective the storm keeps coming back the fact that his boat,
capsize is the fact that is life rub capsizes.

Stu Willis:
[22:26] Yeah it’s gypsies gold from got the gold at least in the first part of the film being can I keep the boat afloat and get where I’m going and that’s answer his forted at the middle of the film when he gets on the life raft.
This is the structure of the film which is there for goal but obstacle.

Chas Fisher:
[22:44] But when I wanted to take from this is try to boil it down to lessons that writers can use in.
Other contacts where I think you can boil his decision down to the fact of do I fight or do I give up as you say educated or thwarted.
Because an and is as important as the context of the end of the film.

Stu Willis:
[23:09] That’s if tattoo choice is car registration every be is do I survive or do I.

Excerpts:
[23:09] That’s it card to chase UK to chase me Bribie is do I survive or do I.

Chas Fisher:
[23:15] Fighting or not yet and.
This film it builds and builds and builds their the forces the antagonistic forces the escalation and till it gets to a point where.
At the end of the film is him choosing to give up and sink Beneath The Waves,
it’s important to note that the context of this film is a series of character decisions like as a very Potter into film because he’s not talking to anyone we don’t know anything about him and yet were relating to him because,
he’s someone who is constantly being asked do you fight for your life,
and there’s no negotiating with the weather that he does have a lot of.
It is presented with the feeling of agency in the face of insurmountable undefeatable odds because have these mini.
Obstacles that he keeps overcoming until you get so tired of overcoming him overcoming them that he just slipped Beneath The Waves and and gives up.
Now I say that because that is the character.

Stu Willis:
[24:20] Need.

Excerpts:
[24:20] Need.

Stu Willis:
[24:22] The why does need for the character of the big mean to orchestrate the Sequence of Events so he is.
His character is basically pushed to the breaking point or he’s made that choice any chooses to give up and then he may be saved in that choice but at that point he gave up but I misses him and I’m gonna let you talk about it because I think it is the orchestration,
choosing of this particular series of beats starting with him thinking he has fresh that’s the kind of the first weakness when he thinks he has Freshwater,
because he took over by.

Excerpts:
[24:52] Because he took over.

Stu Willis:
[24:55] A plastic bottle and he’ll be like in the kitchen and come to drink some water and then realises are to all this shit that he’s been through that’s filled with salt water.

[25:07] And his broken for the first time and then he realises he can make a solar still but more important that kind of sets up this last part of the film where you can’t start to feel he I think he starts feeling a lot more to feed it would you.

Chas Fisher:
[25:19] Well he writes the the goodbye letter that is the vo that’s read out at the beginning release date you Mr vo this read out in the beginning.

[26:34] So the only piece of communication we have.
Between him and someone else and it’s I think it’s fascinating that they start with that video that b o does a lot of heavy lifting.
For the film because as you say it gives us.
Some measure of understanding of the character that he’s running from something and regret not being able to resolve it.
And that’s super important because he’s been faced with this life or death scenario and I think that.
I think that video gives us the reason why he keeps on fighting.

Excerpts:
[27:12] Give us access to the character and yes.

Chas Fisher:
[27:17] As you said that the the Trawler beat so he gets to the shipping lane he he he macgyver’s the fuck out whether you you think he’s incompetent or not the fact that he actually,
you know it’s even more impressively macgyvering if you think he’s incompetent he gets to the shipping lane and she’s not one but two trawlers.
Go past him while he’s using his players to draw their attention.

[27:50] And what is important to note is you’ll never see inside the troll is you’ll never see.

Stu Willis:
[27:58] My observation.

Chas Fisher:
[27:59] It is your observational that’s what you were cheering me up today.

Stu Willis:
[28:02] Lol I want to keep my good observations.
I’m in a take that back now I’m going to bring up this is the tallest but I’ll let you point out that we don’t seem to them because I think it’ll come back so how I wrap it up I’ll let you have this one jazz just take it.

Chas Fisher:
[28:23] Hey do you want me to eat do you want me to cheer you up in a transition.

Stu Willis:
[28:27] No just say no no no just talked about the inside the troll as we don’t see inside but there are like a force of nature I’m assuming that’s what you’re about to say.

Chas Fisher:
[28:39] 32 trawlers go past and that they just move on and he’s left abandoned but importantly we never see inside the troll as we never see a.
Human sentient character inside either asleep or listening to music and not seeing him you’ll never see someone making a choice yeah they go.

Stu Willis:
[29:02] Kids are making a choice because.

Excerpts:
[29:03] Making a choice because.

Stu Willis:
[29:05] And I die to the breakdown of these obstacles the reason this is vs nature. This is the central conflict what time are the central conflict is it the source of all this pressure is nature it is.

Excerpts:
[29:16] Check out what it is.

Stu Willis:
[29:29] You know don’t have a need for another matter want or a particular goal.

Chas Fisher:
[29:35] None of them can be negotiated with.

Stu Willis:
[29:38] Yeah that’s why this is a versus nature because ultimately they’re in different to his struggle and they’ve gone out of their way.
In time that’s why there is a version of all of lost,
Micah misery where there is someone trying to find his boat because there’s a distress call there is a moment where we go inside the ship and there is someone trying to convince the captain to turn around they’re all versions of the story.

Excerpts:
[29:50] Micah misery weather is someone trying to find his boat because there’s a distress call there is a moment where we go inside the ship and there is someone trying to convince the captain to turn around they’re all versions of the story.

Stu Willis:
[30:03] The could have been ringing but JC chandor has made a very.
Significant choice it all the antagonistic forces in this film at least the obstacles are going to be coming from nature there is an antagonistic force with him in,
right which is this question of do I give up or do I not.

Chas Fisher:
[30:28] Well it’s a think I don’t know whether I’d waited it’s a force is not guiding him to do anything but.
He’s fighting for something and the pressures on him keep making him make that decision over and over again do I give up now or do I fight do I give up now,
fight and they making do it again and again and again and again ever escalating ever creating more pressure ever making it harder to make that decision to fight until he does give up.

Stu Willis:
[30:55] And he gives up after he starts has no more flares.

Excerpts:
[30:56] And he gives up after he starts has no more flares is all our options and start the fire on his life raft of attract this fishing trawler and the fire gets out of control is forced to jump in the water.

Stu Willis:
[30:59] Is all our options in start to fire on his life raft of a track this fishing trawler and the fire gets out of control in his forced to jump in the water.

Chas Fisher:
[31:08] He burns his soul is still so even though the fire does get out of control he’s made the decision.

Stu Willis:
[31:14] Get your right heat this is like a girl like peevishly is out of options about point and goes that far you’ve got what she got a float on but he can’t eat.

Chas Fisher:
[31:24] I could eat I think you could have thrown the fire.

Excerpts:
[31:24] Is that likely.

Chas Fisher:
[31:27] Overboard that’s what I was thinking at the time he setting a fire because he’s out of flares and then he just keeps burning shit I think you’ll like there’s a real active choice in terms of an active dramatisation of him giving up.

Excerpts:
[31:41] Yes he’s burning everything.

Stu Willis:
[31:43] Yeah it’s all in he’s got nothing else left this doesn’t work is fucked he’s already kind of realising he’s drifting out of the shipping lanes anyway oh yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[31:53] I just want to come back to an observation you made in part 1 when we watch this movie and we watch Misery and you said.
After watching misery you felt that you understood or had more understanding of the character of our man nameless character who barely has any lines of dialogue that aren’t swearing at the elements,
then you had a Paul Sheldon a character who we spend it almost the entirety of a film locked in the room with another character.
And Jimmy what’s that’s kind of a pivotal element of this nature antagonist is that.
Like I’m going to kindest as as you alluded to earlier we we’ve made this is a a re-recording and.
I think part of it is because Paul Sheldon because he could negotiate with Annie Wilkes.
There is you kinda got the feeling that if he just went along writing misery novels locked in her bedroom for the rest of his life.
He would live where is these got because Annie Wilkes has identifiable goals obstacles wants needs whatever you want to call them he can negotiate with her a man cannot negotiate with the weather.

Stu Willis:
[33:12] Yeah I agree I’m not sure I think I know him in terms of I could write a man’s bibliography or obituary in the same way I could write a Nepal Sheldon’s obituaries but I think this kind of essential.

Excerpts:
[33:12] I agree I’m not sure I think I know him in terms that I could write a man’s bibliography or obituary in the same way I could write a Nepal Sheldon’s obituaries but I think because there is this kind of essential.

Stu Willis:
[33:26] Almost primal need to Survivor him that you can kind of connecting with the performances better so I don’t know if I agree with that statement now but there is only a sense of him.
Just wait you would it just comes back to that opening voice over which is very kind of sets up this idea that there is an emotional there’s a card to question about him there’s no card question about pork Paul has a goal,
to get home so does our man but there is no dessert like there is no the film does not ask question about his character in a way to ask the question about our man.

Chas Fisher:
[33:58] Agreed that’s the thing you know what the length of our man will go to to survive in a way that obviously Paul goes to great lengths to survive only world’s but we don’t know what his limits are we don’t know what his breaking point is.

Stu Willis:
[34:13] Thanks speaking of good-looking a middle aged man in in any kind of remote places that tester character should we move on to the grey.

The Grey

Chas Fisher:
[34:22] Yeah I think the grey is an interesting a subcategory of these vs nature antagonist.
Where there’s a team of people.
That is on that is pitted against the nature antagonist verse instead of no gravity or All Is Lost or where.

Stu Willis:
[34:48] 27 hours.

Chas Fisher:
[34:49] 1/27 yep where is just one person.

[36:21] So the grey is a set in I believe Alaska it’s set around a.
I believe an oil drilling operation and a group of men who fly in and fly out of this work and in the opening voice over it says that these men.

[36:49] We have a lead character in John Otway played by Liam Neeson.
Who is a he doesn’t work with these men he’s even more alone because he’s someone who protects the man from the wildlife he’s a hunter who hunts wolves and bears and things that may a taxi.
Reg all the men of flying home for their break and the plane crashes and it crashes into.
The hunting zone of a pack of wolves there the titular grey of the film and the wolves go picking off the men one by one.

Stu Willis:
[37:28] The goal is very specific which is they want to move out.

Excerpts:
[37:28] The goal is very specific which is they want to move out one meaning to them eat their super rejective is to obviously survive but to do that the tangible goal is to move such sit there outside of the territory of the.

Stu Willis:
[37:31] 1 many 2 amiibo super rejective is too obviously Survivor to do that the tangible goal is to move such that they’re outside of the territory of the walls.

Chas Fisher:
[37:42] Ok even before they they are in that I can’t even remember if it’s before or after the world’s first attack by John Otway very early on suggest they need to move because they’re not going to be found before they die.
Weather is because the wolves all because it’s because of the freezing cold the lack of food what have you.

Stu Willis:
[38:02] So I’m gonna ask a couple of questions which is do you think a lot observations I’m going to frame is a question which is do you think the film opens more or less with a character question.

Excerpts:
[38:02] So I may ask a couple of questions which is do you think a lot of observations are going to friends a question we just do you think the film opens more or less with a character question.

Chas Fisher:
[38:15] I I was fascinated we watching this film looking at it through this lens that the film opens with John Otway walking away from.
The rig at night putting a gun to his his rifle to his head and contemplating suicide and he chooses in that moment at the very beginning of the film to not kill himself.

[38:57] So I think that very much poses a character question because it’s hardly a pop question is not like someone else is holding the gun to his head.
So be it poses the character question of a let me try and see if I can prove it took what.
Precisely is does John Otway want to live.

Excerpts:
[39:20] Ok

Stu Willis:
[39:21] Sister you’d stretch to try to be precise when I think what he makes these questions character questions interesting is there.
Fucking it’s because it’s like he wants to live like I’m went on a dramatic level he dance like a chasm is demonstrated his will desire to live which is that he doesn’t pull the trigger it is I guess the question for me is it’s like.
Why doesn’t like it, things like why does he pull the trigger why did you think about doing it in the first place like will he he find the will to live because for me even though we haven’t seen it which is this isn’t saying we don’t see multiple.
Versions of this scene where he does the same thing there is the sense that this was on a one-off desire that he possibly.
Is like Riggs in Lethal Weapon and put this gun in his mouth every so often and thinks about pulling the trigger answer the character in question is,
will his behaviour change will he will there be appointment in no longer does that this morning to make about obstacles with that particular show.
And it will come all the way out other antagonists what I found interesting re-watching it is the shot of him putting the rifle in his mouth.
Literally interrupt the sequence of the voice over.
When he’s writing a letter B shot itself is it for her kind of interruption it just kind of like a small thing but it’s a stylistic choice that they’ve made because it was kind of no antagonist in this opening.
Right there is no not about drama.

Chas Fisher:
[40:52] Other than himself.

Stu Willis:
[40:54] Other than himself but because really the first optical and kind of goal kick this plane takes off with obviously the goal.
To be to land safely with this point this Plane full of men and it’s into right you know but for the obstacle which is the plane crashing it would have happened.
And then that’s it the whole that’s it’s the rest of the story and.
I think I’m just gonna break it there’s two forms of antagonism hear that nature is expressed there is the obstacles of the environment itself the Blizzard the.
Holderness the water the cliff.
The clippers I mean that’s a great example for those base of these pointy the film when they realise they’re here they can hear a river then he logging trees and they keep on walking and they come to a cliff and there is literally a gap a cousin that they have to be by Cross.

Chas Fisher:
[42:29] Importantly one person has to leave a cross with the rope that allows the others,
to get across safely and I say that’s important because that’s one of the characters making a sacrifice for the benefit of the group which as we delve into the antagonistic forces of the wolves,
I think is the point of the film and a point of choosing the wolves as being the antagonistic Force.

Stu Willis:
[42:51] So I think the walls kind of feel like a net force of nature because I don’t think there’s a sensitive you being able to defeat the walls will negotiate them in fact they go on in a one of them asks.

Excerpts:
[42:51] So I think the walls kind of feel like a net force of nature because I don’t think there’s a sensitive you being able to defeat the walls or negotiate them in fact they go on in a one of them asks.

Stu Willis:
[43:10] So there’s a sense of them kind of being not Supernatural by there meant to be the walls and sell them until you feel like bigger and scary as the sense of that they can’t let go shape with these things.

Chas Fisher:
[43:20] They’re undefeatable.

Excerpts:
[43:22] The UN.

Stu Willis:
[43:32] So they’re not like a normal months to move the bike I don’t know Dog Soldiers how to speak of walls or even Alienware the film or end with the death of the walls I don’t think there’s ever a question the film.

Excerpts:
[43:32] So they’re not like a normal Monster movie like I don’t know Dog Soldiers how to speak of walls or even Alienware the film or end with the death of the walls I don’t think there’s ever a question the film.

Stu Willis:
[43:45] ENZED an answer.

Excerpts:
[43:46] Wrap.

Chas Fisher:
[43:48] Yeah that’s I think you’re right I think so they do kill a wolf during the film and.
I think it’s only near the end where it really becomes clear that there and undefeatable antagonist.
Made it is by the by I think I think you’re largely correct ended they are presented as.
A a an obstacle an antagonistic Foster cannot be negotiated with just a to put it in the context of these films but I find it fascinating that the.
You know as you say John away is the beginning of the film presenting with a carriage question of do I give up do I die or do I keep living.
Very clearly dramatise binary choice do I pull the trigger do I not pull pull the trigger but from the moment that the crash happened.
He is constantly presented with that choice again and,
as I every other member of this small and ever dwindling group of men fighting to survive and they constantly presented with that choice and he never wants considers,
striking out on his own it’s almost like that decision that is made at the beginning.
To me it’s it’s I’m I read was not the same as yours where that it was part of his ritual of his life to me was a more binding permanent decision that then gets tested for the rest of the movie.

Stu Willis:
[45:17] I’m just in.

Chas Fisher:
[45:18] And telling me the end of the movie.
Is an again I’m going to do the end of the movie so that we can talk about other bits of it in context of the whole journey of the.

Stu Willis:
[45:28] Nothing it’s actually useful because in fact what the writer is trying to do here I’m assuming.

Excerpts:
[45:28] It’s actually useful because in fact what the writer is trying to do here I’m assuming.

Stu Willis:
[45:34] That baby what the ending was there orchestrating around tables dickfoss is so the ending works that kinda like a crap lesson about having to put pressure on the character so much but in the right order so he is reached.
Reaches this Final Destination so he’s educated or quartered.

Chas Fisher:
[45:54] And the ending of the film which was.
Misleading we actually revealed in the trailers such the people went to the film expecting to see wolf puncher the movie at both ends with him.

Stu Willis:
[46:10] Hunting the wharf.

Chas Fisher:
[46:11] He’s lost all the biz is his loss all of his friends and he is taping up broken glass bottles into his fist so that he’s getting ready to fight and throw out the movie he’s quoted a poem that was written by his father.

Stu Willis:
[46:25] The conflict only comes to the front because of the pressure placed on them by both the walls and the environment itself and in fact it is an observation I think this is true the other in sumbul films at the.
Deaths of those within the group are actually a former pressure then put an obstacle the death of the first character the funny guy.

Chas Fisher:
[46:45] I think that’s the second one cause the first one gets it to get taken by the wolves the guy whose.

Stu Willis:
[46:51] Yes minutes it’s an interruption so he’s meant to be on watch and then he dies but they find in the next morning doesn’t there is.
Make return home he’s got his dad let’s find some else to do what they find him after that puts pressure on the group such as Otway saying they need to leave the crash site which then,
Prince Diaz who is more or less the car at the leading carriage rent Agnes for Otway to question otways leadership.

[47:42] Answered that first death.
Changes the goal pushes them into action which is we need to now run for the trees but then also brings up the interpersonal conflict which is dear.
Right I meant and then finally dies at anyone’s these trees and finally dies by walls right and then me and then I have to as Night Falls I have to run to drink but finding his death is not an obstacle for them they don’t try to retrieve the body or anything like that it’s,
an additional form of pressure,
each death just increasing the pressure on that group just that ever little bit to the point where Diaz as identified as is the clear clear interpersonal.
Antagonists.
Antagoniser of Otway he’s the one that questions on wastages he is his antagonizes everyone he’s like you know who tried once whiskey,
it’s on a fucking folk where is name is once Russian the alcohol do you Haz is like I don’t want you to Russian it like it’s challenging.
He wants to go alone he kind of in a way represents Otway selfish or isolation and beginning of the film because that’s the big shift to the.
Verb the crash itself is forced on way to position where his to care for others.

Excerpts:
[48:53] Again.

Chas Fisher:
[48:54] Absolutely and and it’s not just away all the men in this group they are men that are unfit for mankind and they have to learn to act,
as a pack and I use the web pack for obvious reasons,
but I think also in each of their death represent you know instead of.
Otway being presented with a choice is like these men of vicariously making it dramatically on always behalf you’ve got the man who,
can’t run fast enough you got the man who just gives up and dies in his sleep you’ve got the man,
I mean who does fantasizing about his daughter because he wants to reconnect with family and not be unfit for mankind or they are all all their deaths of representations of.
Bad decisions that.
But we could take and is not taking these other men and making it on his behalf Otway choosing 24 John is not used it is being dramatised.
Kind of through these are these are the men’s decisions but I wanted.
Talk about the choice of the wolves as a singular kind of nature antagonist because you and I talked about this film before and how.
You know I could have been.
Wolves and then bears and then Dragons and then viruses who you know if they’re the choices they made a a singular nature antagonist and.

[50:30] I am one of the previous parts at this over this 5 podcast ask the question of.
What obstacles is the antagonist providing defining that as a plot antagonist what how is the,
antagonists a post pushing the protagonist to change being an internal character antagonist and finally how does the antagonist mirror.
The protagonist Journey and If you look in this film briefly as the group of men being the protagonist not just John Otway the pack of wolves is the day metric opposite.
To this group of men they are.
They hunt as a pack and they are and the man or a group of individuals who are all fighting one another and questioning one another the pack have an alpha and it’s only kind of as they accept John Otway as an alpha do they.
Start gaining some successes there’s one particular sequence of a campfire wear.
Dias the the other human vying for the alpha male role with you as you said is constantly challenging Otway.

Excerpts:
[51:42] Please an alpha male leader he’s an alpha male every man for him.

Chas Fisher:
[52:25] Dear finally breakdown between John Otway and Diaz fighting fist fighting physically fighting.

[52:43] It is no narrative coincidence that Dad is the point that a wolf chooses to attack when the group is at it’s weakest now.
Interestingly the day chosen for that wolf to be an outcast from the pack it attacks by itself.
That the alpha has ejected from the pack that wolf attacks by itself and it is the only wolf that the group kill because Diaz except Otway as the alpha it is acting as an individual and the the man.
Kill it because they act as a pack they are no longer unfit for mankind they are working together.

Stu Willis:
[53:24] And so with the personal conflict interpersonal conflict resolve.
Where do they go from here they have to put more pressure on the characters so one of the men.
Dies during the night um who is this is Burke and this is an example of pressure so don’t try to use as much as he’s been saying that there is obstacles because of the nature it’s left body than.
All Is Lost Burke dies for altitude sickness away ever but we can see that this puts pressure on Otway.
You just basically he is shaking but going wake up wake up wake up wake up and.

Chas Fisher:
[54:05] Doing CPR I think.

Stu Willis:
[54:07] No I just think it looks like he’s in despair but Burke way Burke die did you give the opportunity to save him and I think it’s connects to his wife Cuz there is a little bit of a mystery.
Threaded through the found.
It’s an audience question cuz he’s one this letter at the beginning and we assume that his nephew is deliberate deliberately withhold information and then revealed that he’s all these shots of him and his wife she’s actually.
In hospital bed and getting intravenous and all that stuff so that’s a slow reveal but you can see the force the pressure building or not.
Write a message when I come to the ravine pendiente Berserk forces I’ll put it in and how they like to choice a very simply put when when ever come into which character says it’s the walls of the tree.
Away pretty much circulates all the antagonism.

Excerpts:
[54:56] Pretty much to delete all the antagonism.

Chas Fisher:
[54:59] He also Rob’s articulates the goals.

Stu Willis:
[55:02] Yep it does the walls at this point I’m in there obviously tangible but in that very moment that seen their pressure they like the ticking clock some point they will arrive.

Excerpts:
[55:02] Yep he does the walls at this point I’m in there obviously tangible but in that very moment that seen their pressure they like the ticking clock some point they will arrive.

Stu Willis:
[55:11] Will we wait Hendrick someone jumps over and misses a good little example of how you can put off to go on top of obstacle to create a tool set piece which is they have to type everything together to quit this Saturday and then Hendrick have to jump to the other side of things,
makeshift rope.

[55:34] Right and then the others a hole.

Chas Fisher:
[55:36] Witch a letter to before.as Hendrick risking his own life for the.

Excerpts:
[55:36] And then they make it right.

Stu Willis:
[55:40] His life.

Chas Fisher:
[55:42] Which is not something that Hendrick or Otway would have done prior to this plane crash.

Stu Willis:
[55:48] Answer character choice as a result of the pressures being placed on them.

Excerpts:
[55:48] It’s ok it’s a choice as a result of the pressures being placed on them.

Stu Willis:
[55:52] But then anything all pot.
Peace potato comes apart to of the right pieces and needs a Diaz grabs mine but then Diaz hurtles forward and then and then what happens he stops and then the peak of the lead breaks underneath him he starts falling and then the group up to grab him.

[56:15] That is awesome you know he needs get the other side but for the fact that the camera is broken gold grab the tether obstacle.

Excerpts:
[56:23] Witch.

Stu Willis:
[56:26] 100 litre is that they’ve got these pot things but ultimately you then got these moments of pressure Dias decides that he can’t go on he’s got this,
me for any injury from falling off the tree and he decides to actually give up he is in a way he has always been the shadow of.
Otway he’s like always worse instincts is isolation alsim his aggression his anger is atheism in a way like you’ve got the religious carried away think is Hendrick.
And then you’ve got the easiest character which is d as a man talking about fake they were kind of in a way representing a otways internal conflicts right this is kind of power babe dramatized it and then.
Decide to die.

[57:46] Hendrix knowledge that he’s been holding onto is actually a force of pressure on Otway and you can see the otways reaction to witches.

[58:05] Joe carnahan has decided specifically to put that scene that moment that Revelation there because it pushes Otway in the last part of the film it and then obviously he dies in again you got someone.

Chas Fisher:
[58:18] I’ll hold on before we just got over Hendrick.
Like it’s it’s the last death of of all the the group other than Otway and.
It’s someone that way came to care about he doesn’t give up he’s just sort of taken by chance and always fighting to save this man screaming.

[58:55] And it’s you know to me I think of representation of Otway fighting to save his wife and will they’re not wait being confronted with the pointlessness of fighting and yet still choosing to fight.

Excerpts:
[59:10] Yes.

Stu Willis:
[59:12] I don’t know if I have much more I like I suppose that leads to that final choice right to lead you back to that idea when he’s the only one left there is actually a pressure on him his goal at the beginning was to take this group of men do safety now he’s actually lost.

Excerpts:
[59:26] All of that.

Stu Willis:
[59:28] All Is Lost for him for Otway and what’s his decision when he then he kinda only it’s beautifully dramatised put down all the wallet to look through these photos connect to these people and then he stumbled into the den of wolves.
And then makes the decision to be.

Chas Fisher:
[59:44] Yeah.

Stu Willis:
[59:45] John Otway wolf puncher.
But it’s important just cause he doesn’t give up he is going to fight to the last.
And that is a result of all the pressures that’s been very carefully orchestrated but it also comes across the characters Judy as mention says it’s fate.
It there is a sense of Fate in this the walls being their fate the ship coming that the plane coming down their fate they’re all that’s how they tested him as fake as opposed to I needed as any.
As opposed the things we look in the first two parts I don’t think what is happening in shame is fate I don’t think what is happening in Monster is fate or at least how the film chooses to freight it.

Chas Fisher:
[1:00:24] And it feels later because the antagonist are not presented as having choice is not that antagonist using to do this to the protagonist.

Stu Willis:
[1:00:35] Changes the tone a min Max it’s carry around and I think wanting me to talk about briefly to finish it off but think thinking about,
pressure on York a group of characters if you haven’t in sumbul is very interesting and what does that pressure do if you think of me in some of the singular character what does that choices does that make that example.

Excerpts:
[1:00:44] Pressure on your group of characters if you have it in some balls very interesting and what does that pressure do if you think of me and some more of the singular character what does that choices does that make that and sample think you know.

Stu Willis:
[1:00:58] What would Starship Enterprise do.

Excerpts:
[1:01:00] As a group you know.

Contagion

Stu Willis:
[1:01:05] Hi I think we can aim in speaking of groups of me I think that’s actually really good way to move into Contagion because intentions about a single antagonist affecting a bunch of different people but what he did not in in sample disconnect,
and I think that is what makes it really interesting to look at.

Chas Fisher:
[1:01:21] For those of you not following this year with us guide to pronunciation he’s actually referring to Contagion.

[1:02:09] I rewatched it this afternoon.
And it is a truly terrifying movie I’d forgotten just how terrifying it is but it is essentially positing the creation of a new.
Virus that has quite a high mortality rate and it it follows a number of different characters and how.

Excerpts:
[1:02:32] I am 6 7 7 67 main character’s I would say.

Chas Fisher:
[1:02:49] Puts itself back together again in the face of this terrifying thing and it is as you say it’s a single source of antagonism where the rules are fairly.
Clear and laid down at various points.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:05] Get a specifically telus how the virus works get speed of operation and what is what the consequences for that.

Excerpts:
[1:03:05] Get a specifically telus how the virus works it’s speed of operation and what is what the consequences for that.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:11] Yeah that has even a whiteboard moment.

[1:03:50] What is fascinating about the film is as the different characters dealing with this evening.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:57] Cause I think in contrast to the grey this is a chemical light on the characters but they’re not a single they’re not only in small they’re not a group which is pressurised amendment c125 the same as in Alien.

Excerpts:
[1:03:57] Cos I think in contrast to the grey this is a form of the light on the characters but they’re not a single they’re not invincible they’re not a group which is pressurised and then we see one supply the same as in Alien.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:11] Very few of them interact with each other.

Excerpts:
[1:04:14] In a way it’s more like Jurassic Park and still be following multiple thread but yeah there’s even less crossover.

Stu Willis:
[1:04:14] In a way it’s more like Jurassic Park is to be following multiple thread but yeah there’s even less crossover.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:21] I’d say it’s more like Love Actually.

Stu Willis:
[1:04:23] We may revisit this from if we do hyperlinks in cinema which is his idea of yet lodging some funds because this is a single source of jews might and pressure.
And then even though it’s an antagonistic for some we understand and that we all learn through the events of the.
What does there are multiple characters who stories stories that we follow.
And I think it’s interesting to look at how to film uses this Engel antagonist of the virus to press put pressure on that his garages and explore different responses.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:55] You propose nothing this is the best way to tackle this film is to talk about each of the characters and what are their sources of antagonism and how are they sources of antagonism to other characters.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:07] There is Matt Damon in plays Mitch m off who is the husband of Gwyneth Paltrow character Beth who dies.

[1:05:44] Des Moines fishbone who is Dr Ellis cheever.

Chas Fisher:
[1:05:47] Is he the head of the CDC.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:49] Which is the centre for disease control.

[1:06:00] And there’s Kate Winslet who plays Dr Aaron ears and epidemic.

[1:06:12] She’s like a logisticians,
authentic she also works for the CDC but she’s kind of like on the coalface she’s a field worker.

[1:06:24] And then there’s Dr Ali hextol Point by Jennifer Earle.

[1:06:48] Is Jude Law are who plays Alan do more playing Jude Law playing Alan is a conspiratorially thing is run some website.

[1:07:26] Liver located all kinds of set up differently and then put under pressure differently and I think it’s worth to quickly talking through that have that single source of antagonism pressurizes each of these characters and forces them to make choices.

Chas Fisher:
[1:07:40] Well I’ll start with the easiest one which is the the Matt Damon character because he is just basically there to represent what it’s like being an everyday person in.
The apocalyptic nature of this Contagion story so he ends up being immune to the disease but his daughter bit yummy eat within the first 5 minutes of the film he loses his wife and his step son in it.
Brutal but as someone with.
The age of Matt Damon son character and he goes to the hospital with his wife is having a seizure she dies while he’s in the hospital but on his way back home his son has died alone and in bed and.
He just comes back to find his son’s body in bed and there’s just.

[1:08:32] He is his journey is to protect his daughter from being infected to just.
To feed her because at some point there’s there’s a breakdown of,
nurses fire department police there’s Matt luteins there’s lack of food lack of resources and his job is just to keep his daughter from being.
Infected and experiencing what it would be like.
On the ground he’s the representation of the Everyman in in this world.

Stu Willis:
[1:09:07] How do you put that character under pressure if he is his goal is give his daughter safe she basically starts no no.

Chas Fisher:
[1:09:54] That the fascinating thing is you know the sources of antagonism change like they actually develop a vaccine and everyone can see the world putting itself back together but it hasn’t yet and she wants to go outside and he’s and he still won’t let her go outside.
Because that the disease is still not out there and there’s a lot of me and she’s not going to get the vaccine for another hundred and 64 days.

Stu Willis:
[1:10:31] Do you think it forces him to make a choice what’s the choice.
But he’s forced to make a PE put under pressure is not obviously little seek answers to do with their meaning to steal for food him getting up again,
I don’t want to go into detail but there’s like as you say there’s name meaning they going into the chemist trying to get stuff that they believe is,
going to make them better which is connected to the Jews or character they have to get food with the back of trucks there is someone that is stealing a picture shooting people over plus the boyfriend like all this stuff put pressure on his.
Want me to keep his daughter.

Excerpts:
[1:11:07] Safe.

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:09] I think this film is an excellent example of.
Just as a very task-oriented film there’s not very much in a challenge to all these characters they’re all I think.
Very much the same.
At the end of the movie as they are at the beginning much like our man but they just put under intense pressure to survive and to.
You know that the movie goes through different things about first about containing the virus and then the sequence is about finding a cure and then the sequences about we found the cure but let’s distribute The Cure so.
Weed in every single scene with an every single seeing what’s fascinating about it is nearly everything is an expo dump.
But everything has conflict and that’s.
From the source of a of antagonism so rather than boiling down to 18 point I think we’ve got a fairly clear idea of what Matt Damon’s like he doesn’t have.

Stu Willis:
[1:12:12] Tyre pressures like a key console he keeps depression we ultimately he will Lentz and left his daughter before she’s had her vaccinations doesn’t let it go on her.

Excerpts:
[1:12:12] How precious like a constantly keep the pressure will ultimately he relents and left his daughter before she’s had her vaccinations does me Let Her Go on a pond.

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:22] Yeah but he’s had his vaccinations he he throws a prom for her in her house.

Stu Willis:
[1:12:28] Ok

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:29] So he keep her safe he doesn’t it doesn’t give up but the reason why you totally get that those sources of antagonism is because.

Excerpts:
[1:12:29] Wrap.

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:36] In the first 5 minutes of the movie he loses his wife and stepson.

Stu Willis:
[1:12:39] Yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:40] What I missed is what Matt Damon is as a character in that film is constantly seeing.
Hit the society fall apart around him and people making what I say is quote unquote bad.
Moral decisions he sing right to sync people pushover,
old ladies who sing people break into other people’s houses in murder each other and steal their shit he’s constantly being presented with that as an option in the same way that John Otway was constantly being presented with different variations of not,
fighting for another day,
constantly presented with the option of being a bad.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:20] Moral.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:21] I’m on a moral or an immoral being and he is constantly choosing to be able to take the right choice in the face of ever escalating.
Odds of being a good man.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:36] And Laurence Fishburne character the Dr Ellis cheever he is the head of CDC I guess the main thing is to do like,
is the split between his duties as they had in the CDC and his relationship with his fiance.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:52] I think he’s actually the possibly the one with the most the character with the most sources of antagonism are there in the initial sequence of the film.
He’s the direct supervisor of Kate winslet’s character the logistician and she ends up contracting the virus and he is.
No his want is to get her out of there a kind of camp that she’s in for the sick people.

[1:14:29] And he’s sorted in his attempt to to evacuate her and to protect her even though she was there because he sent her in.

[1:14:43] He’s sorted an idiot being called he learns that chicago’s going to be put into quarantine.

Stu Willis:
[1:15:37] He makes the decision that pressure Mick pushes him to make a decision where he wants his fiance to get out of town.

[1:16:04] And that in itself spreads like a virus.

[1:16:33] And part of the theme of this film is how do viruses because they’re having a book and media viruses spread than him anyways what happens in the world that is bad is actually the Contagion,
Contagion of a.

Excerpts:
[1:16:45] Contagion of a panic.

Stu Willis:
[1:16:49] Panic as a form of of of a virus it’s been through the media and he is ultimately confronted a true that decision I think he is.
What happens to him what the consequence that he’s found out.

Chas Fisher:
[1:17:03] So there is a really great scene where he comes up against the Jude Law character in a televised interview.

[1:17:45] And that is one of the scariest things like you said it is one of the things that the film is about media and this film.
What year did it come out cause it almost predict where we’re at in terms of a media cycle now where if you have one piece of.
Evidence that someone is not a perfect human being.
That that Ben is trying to do or achieve or say is suddenly not valid.
Is really terrifying terrifying the present do you want to talk more about the Jude Law character cuz he’s again probably one of the more interesting.
Once he’s more than antagonistic force himself but also has his own source.

Stu Willis:
[1:18:31] Forces of it yet he’s a conspiracy blogger I come in the name of his blog but likely other examples we talked about it he catches wind early on about a disease and someone in Hong Kong dies from it.

Excerpts:
[1:18:31] Forces of it yet he’s a conspiracy blogger I come in the name of his blog but hopefully other examples we talked about it he catches wind early on about the disease and someone in Hong Kong dies for it.

Stu Willis:
[1:19:29] And then he’s like it and he wants you to published at work it published his supported and that it’s Kate’s him that he needs to spread the information about it and then he shows himself.

Chas Fisher:
[1:19:40] Is the profit from dcf dymock.

Stu Willis:
[1:20:41] And then he shows himself is sick and then but he also it then becomes a cupboard using a QR like it’s a hammer.

Chas Fisher:
[1:20:50] Described as yeah just grab this homoeopathic.

Excerpts:
[1:20:50] Ok cool.

Stu Willis:
[1:21:21] He encourages people to seek for CPR that leads to people panicking and I was wondering from his trying to get hold of this thing.

[1:21:47] But Ben is revealed to us that Alan the Jude Law character faked being affected in order to increase.
Profits for companies selling forsythia in which he became a shared hole I think it was a shower so he basically use disposition to increase that’s commit Securities for trees Ford,
but he’s been bailed out by his supporters who have raised funds to get him released.

Excerpts:
[1:22:16] Because he.

Stu Willis:
[1:22:17] Never actually think it’s a quicky Fated to question is whether or not he was a new whether he.

Excerpts:
[1:22:24] Genuinely sick you may have someone that had a natural immunity to.

Stu Willis:
[1:22:28] I’m not gay.

Chas Fisher:
[1:22:41] Because he’s one of those kind of conspiracy theories to.
Believes that every test is being that the government is to any action by the government is inherently corrupt.
And cannot be trusted so he doesn’t trust the test they’ve done proving that he’s not sick he doesn’t trust the test the gun on Pacific proving that it doesn’t work he doesn’t eat.
You know they’re the ultimate the reason why the government puts resources into going after him at the end when there’s still kind of in the middle of this crisis is because he’s,
threatening to tell his followers do not take the vaccine.

Stu Willis:
[1:23:17] So he’s dropping antagonist ever what’s the pressure on him to pressure on him as if he has a friend current her name from the newspaper where he originally tried to get his stories published and then she.
Is sick and I think she’s even got a child.

Excerpts:
[1:23:34] I’m not.

Stu Willis:
[1:23:35] She’s pregnant so he’s got a depression because a friend of his in the newspaper the getting ready told to sell the story turns up and she’s sick and she is pregnant and she wants to sit here and he is given a choice about whether or not,
to give it to her.

[1:24:31] And he chooses to not give it to her,
she is the antagonistic force in over those and over those number of season 2 he dies and then that is taken over by whoever is pursuing him,
these are legal claims but this is one of the strength of the movie he could have just been kept as.

Excerpts:
[1:24:50] A

Stu Willis:
[1:24:51] Force of antagonism spreading disinformation but they chosen to put him under pressure and then he had to enforce them to make a choice.
And then he he thought he was watered or educated if you did Queen in the sense that he was willing to not give it to her we never know is it because he’s not willing to give to her,
because you do really believes that Pacifica is giving him alive or is he not willing it to give to her because he knows it’s placebo.
Mackay’s why does it keep doing those things in hindsight it really effective about him sitting up.

Chas Fisher:
[1:25:21] Or or is he Patty and you didn’t help me when I needed help why should I help you now what’s.
Fascinating about that I just want to.
Really poor down in something that you’re saying is that.
When you’re talking about what sources of antagonism he has you’re talking about pressures that make him make choices and we parked on a little bit about this in a lot of previous episodes of the only way that you can truly demonstrate characters,
to an audience from a dramatic point of view is through the choices that they are presented with them what they make.
And so yeah he’s the the pressures on him those ones that make him.

Excerpts:
[1:26:03] In in.

Stu Willis:
[1:26:07] The choices that are available to our man in all is lost a very small insensible a you give up or not they’re very.
But they’re very high contrast choices in the grey.
Pretty all those Academy at the greater choices internally about how they you know when um do you have to put users to refer to Upwey with me choose to defer to Otway his choice to continue living to go and get the wallets.

Excerpts:
[1:26:34] You know that’s pressure on.

Chas Fisher:
[1:26:36] Mini mini obstacles as well or mini goals I like doing make a choice to head to the tree line or stay with the plane do we how do we get down the cliff know who’s going to jump.

Stu Willis:
[1:26:49] You make the character you make a character choice.

Excerpts:
[1:26:50] You make the character you make a character choice.

Stu Willis:
[1:26:52] Speaking of character choices.
I’m I’m gonna go to the doctor Ali character very Jennifer Eagle character she is the one that once upon once she is given an attenuated virus buy another car,
Yahoo what’s in a private lab the great little mini sequence that there is the.

Excerpts:
[1:27:07] Guy who works in a private lab is a great little mini sequence that there is the.

Stu Willis:
[1:27:13] We build characters ordered to destroy.

Excerpts:
[1:27:16] Or

Stu Willis:
[1:27:18] I know he’s a professor.

Excerpts:
[1:27:19] Izzy.

Stu Willis:
[1:27:20] Mercedes,
cctc asks all Labs destroy samples he violates the orders he makes a doctor in character makes a decision to continue testing all cultures using bats old man is able to get a,
breakthrough to do with something to do with them anyone invite this is all very well explained to the movie but then he give this to.

Chas Fisher:
[1:27:42] I can I can I just because it’s pressure in my mind when the virus and she’s like they realise how bad it is they decide not to let.
Anyone store samples of the virus unless they’re in a lab of a certain Calibre of security.

Stu Willis:
[1:27:58] Yes great yet.

Chas Fisher:
[1:27:59] And that’s why they.
Did this doctor that you’re talking about sorry I don’t remember her cat’s name she has to call this other private.

Excerpts:
[1:28:06] Dr Ali the pet store.

Stu Willis:
[1:28:07] Lol yep.

Chas Fisher:
[1:28:08] And say destroy your samples he then choose not to destroy the samples and is the first one to get a breakthrough in growing the virus.
Because they weren’t able to grow up before which meant they weren’t able to experiment with it they weren’t able to test that they weren’t able to try and make a vaccine with it so it was a bit and a nice little mini sequence.

Stu Willis:
[1:28:28] When I put pressure on him my cuz the fact is they could have done this thing where they decided not to have,
wrap sequence the way she had to call him puts pressure on him he this cut minor character gets to make a choice which is do I destroy the samples or night any chooses not doing that leads to a breakthrough that he gives back to her.

[1:29:23] And Ali Dr Ali hextol comes up with a potentially possible vaccinations.

[1:30:09] So she chooses to inoculate herself which is vaccine she literally injector the selfie the vaccine if it doesn’t work giving it a vaccine is a version to buy it will kill her she’s taking a huge risk.
And she visited father and tell him this great story.

[1:31:10] It works Archie ultimately is Delta vaccine then the film turns out it’s a great night ok now had to deal with the logistics of.
Distributing vaccine which puts pressure on society what you’ve already switch you with all these things begin breakdown on a hole and the Matt Damon carried is kind of the point of view into the kind of degradation of.
The society has taken the city’s the decimated by the virus.
And the choices that then say.
Ok talk to TV launch before Lawrence for character cuz he is given as AC DC member to vaccinations for him and his wife and he makes a choice.
To give one to the son of ACDC janitor.
Because the city said Jonah protected him when he heard or overheard.
The line fishers of Jesus phone call to his fiancee so you get out of Chicago and so he makes a choice to help this guy.
Wrap and I’m assuming slightly emotional about it now because it is a moment of selflessness it says a lot about Dr teases character.

Excerpts:
[1:32:17] And.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:18] Then helping each other and that only becomes because of the pressure of you have to vaccinations this kids way down there,
fate diesel choices to write as it may be characters under pressure to force them to make decisions to reveal the truth of who they are to the audience nuggets to themselves.

Chas Fisher:
[1:32:34] Yeah I mean you can study this this particular film from a lot of different aspects and I think we probably will come back to it in other examples bed.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:43] Before you finish off cause I think we’ve dealt with all the main storylines what other Kate Winslet one I think.
The fact that she dies is possibly more to do with raising the stakes for the audience more than her being pressurised and failing to make a choice I don’t think she.
I’m more show she’s a victim in the ensemble.

Chas Fisher:
[1:33:03] Yeah but Laurence Fishburne achievers character constantly says like are you getting enough sleep by you are you eating are you looking after yourself she betrayed as this character whose like fighting for the cause and not looking after her.

Excerpts:
[1:33:03] Sal.

Chas Fisher:
[1:33:39] I’m in her dying moment it bit it’s actually really beautiful and really well done but it’s.
It feels created she’s in this camp and the person in the bed next to hair is shivering and feels cold and she’s dying and she like throws off her blanket to try and give it to him or her coat so you’re again she’s give.

Excerpts:
[1:33:59] That’s a bit pressure.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:05] Don’t be like I mean I think it’s a cliche but that the moment that person dying in the room next to someone who believes it very good point person and finding a good cause.

Excerpts:
[1:34:06] Stop it like I mean were saying it’s a cliche but that the moment that person dying in the room next to someone who believes it very good point person and finding a good cause she could have kept that cut you know.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:15] She could have kept that cut you know.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:17] And that this is it with where we got so many things going on in this movie but what I think it most clearly espouses is the thesis the.
What you said is that the antagonistic forces need to be pressures and that generate choices the force.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:37] You keep pressuring until I generate Joyce’s either for a garage or the educate them but I think more specifically they ultimately have to wait a choice.

Excerpts:
[1:34:38] Keep pressuring until I generate Joyce is needed for a character with a educate them but I think more specifically they ultimately have to enter choice.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:47] Bob’s I think you obstacles for a character or educate the car into I think the pressures resulting choice.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:53] And I think all.

Stu Willis:
[1:34:55] That’s a more clear articulation of it.

Excerpts:
[1:34:55] Small clear articulation of it.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:57] And I think with these as I said I don’t think many of these characters go through a massive internal.
Journey other than how the fuck do we save the world and their different versions of that it’s a bitter very external.
Plot oriented film it’s it’s amazingly well paste and a very thematic film that.

Stu Willis:
[1:35:26] I think what’s interesting to be like the doctor to the character theme chooser tell his fiance and then he betrayed his procel prefers values I do think he’s character is challenge and he fails.
You put these immediate needs protected his fiance over the needs of everyone else so I peed in his.

Chas Fisher:
[1:35:45] And it and it comes back it it’s Revisited later when he’s exerting the the vaccine Dr to take a moment in the sun and she’s like you’re going to get hung out to dry.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:27] And I think you realise it but he realises the truth of who he is and I think I’m like Jude Law character realises he’s actually piece of shit he thinks it’s beginning talks about all these high-minded things about his blog I’m trying to protect people he’s not.

Chas Fisher:
[1:36:42] Does it does he realise that though in the end the film ends with him out on bail and going in interviewing people at the vaccine centres.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:50] Weather is not had at nice is no but the truth of who the character is is real to us.

Chas Fisher:
[1:36:54] Yeah yeah to the audience absolutely.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:57] Where is over nothing beats is more sophisticated them both but them particularly All Is Lost in terms of character journey and even the Graham in his decision.
To add you say to consumer 5 is in contrast to his decision where he chose to not pull the trigger but only slightly.

Vs Supernatual

[1:37:33] So what I was going to train do.
Buy coins out doesn’t make it to yell again you know most modern zombie films played as a virus so did with it’s World War Z.

Excerpts:
[1:37:50] I Am Legend.

Stu Willis:
[1:37:52] 28 Days Later and even Zombieland what is interesting has been manifested in a physical.

Excerpts:
[1:37:59] Right.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:00] And I think all of them,
I’m in Dawn of the Dead is is it the probably the best at this in terms of the zombies walking dead it’s all about human Dynamics zombies adjust a form of pressure to show how horrible him into each other you know,
The Walking Dead is pretty nihilistic 28 days later when you get sold as and stuff is all about that that I’m.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:24] The mist as well.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:27] Yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:29] An endo and the which I did it’s about.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:32] OK it’s OK let’s let’s talk briefly about the witch.

Excerpts:
[1:38:33] Let’s talk briefly about the witch.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:36] What a day think I think all of these different examples are and Annihilation as well where you’ve got this like Contagion like the grey you’ve got this singular Supernatural antagonistic forced where.
People are trying to understand it and in different ones in a World War Z.
They changed the ending from it being late let’s kill the zombies 2 let’s cure the disease.
Let’s find the the the vaccine or the how do how do we deal with this so there.
I think they do.

Stu Willis:
[1:39:17] Seething mass of humanity in World War Z.

Chas Fisher:
[1:39:20] The bees.
The reason why we fell on Supernatural in here and I think is different types of.
Supernatural antagonists ones that we’re dumping in here are really the ones that put,
immense pressure on a group of human beings to see how those human beings interact with each other and rise to the challenge of the antagonistic fork I think there are other supernatural movies like.
You know there a vampire movies where.
Quite often in vampire movies you are the point of view characters are the vampires and there are other sentient beings and about them grappling with a mortality and their their last tour destruction and all that kind of stuff.

Stu Willis:
[1:40:04] Supernatual herself.

Chas Fisher:
[1:40:16] The Vampires become much more animalistic and much less.

Excerpts:
[1:40:20] Dark Dawn.

Chas Fisher:
[1:40:23] Yeah exactly Dusk till Dawn or John carpenter’s vampires so and that’s the same in the witch.

The Witch

[1:41:38] The witch the the actual Supernatural force you’ll never understand what it really wants other than it wants to.
Drink babies blood and why it’s torturing these people these people definitely deserve torturing like it’s very beginning is the trial of this.
To puritanical he was $2 for the zealots and there you’re in there banishment there this family that start.
Turning on each other the what is fascinating for me about the witch and spoilers is she is put under such pressure to the point where.
All her family dies you have to kill her own father.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:31] No Catherine no.

Chas Fisher:
[1:42:34] She’s the same girl from split.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:37] Gunnersen.

Excerpts:
[1:42:37] Thomason get Thomason from me.

Chas Fisher:
[1:42:41] Joins the witches she becomes a witch and at that point that is the point where the witches stop becoming this Supernatural Force and actually become something that we understand where like they are this.
They are this thing that has been created by people.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:59] On 18th April.

Chas Fisher:
[1:43:00] Yes that is my interpretation otherwise why does it end with her taking her clothes off and joining the cackling koven what’s the point of that ending.

Stu Willis:
[1:43:08] Why the Crucible it’s about this antagonistic force like literally Satan which in this case is black Phillip but it’s a name it’s actually Hebrew for the adversary.
Other queues it so we don’t wait is the adversary it’s the antagonistic force all of this is about sowing the seeds of distrust between the family and a family destroys itself say Thomas is the only one left and she put under so much pressure she either,
using two black Phillip.

Excerpts:
[1:43:34] Using two bike Phillip.

Stu Willis:
[1:43:36] It doesn’t and she does I think ultimately turns of what we’re talking about all these Supernatural forces,
conspire in such a way that she’s she’s pressured constantly pressured to make a choice you have to confess to being a witch is that part of it they convinced that she’s a witch.

Chas Fisher:
[1:43:55] Yeah but she’s she’s not I mean in the end the family stop blaming her for her you know that the inciting incident is the witch stealing the baby while,
she was looking after the baby and the at first the family I like,
yep it’s all on the witch and then they’re starting to be like no you’re the wish to their own daughter and you know that’s triggered by the sun getting lost and coming back in.
Dying a very Supernatural death but I think what I want to draw attention to like these class of films is like the way that Contagion.
That the virus act in a way that.
Create at the matic Unity between the different stories and pressures that their characters are being put under that is the same in a lot of these different Supernatural films where the zombies in.
Dawn of the Dead late your famously the criticism of consumerism because they all hold up in her in a mall and there and as he said the people of Worst Witch other than the then the zombies are.
Is very different to what the zombies are creating in.
28 Days Later which again makes the comment that the people you know the end up in that castle with Krista dad Christopher Eccleston in there the people are worse than the zombies.

Stu Willis:
[1:45:18] To cook the quote Ripley from aliens.

Excerpts:
[1:45:18] Pick up the quote Ripley from aliens.

Chas Fisher:
[1:45:28] But that the point is what you can do with your supernatural antagonists.
Force your protagonists into the position where they make the choice that is what your film is about and I think all of these natural,
ones that we’ve export like that’s what tyres this class of supernatural antagonist with the class of the nature antagonists is.
All of them a pushing these characters to that final culminating decision which is a reflection of what the movie is about.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:02] Nothing really got anything more to say about monster movies Richards,
you know what’s yours on Pacific Rim or even Predator going to talk about it I’m in a think we kinda talked about it beginning of supernatural is it kind of Mormons remember with the mist all the witch it stop it.
There are rules of the world but there are little bit but it is learning what those rules are and you know zombies with it’s killing me in the head or what the vaccine is it’s coming back soon is basically a scientific version of learning computer,
depends on the black or the ring or any of those films. Try to wrap this up with learnings you like finally.

Wrap Up & Learnings

Chas Fisher:
[1:46:41] I mean look at hi I have come I think someone more of a convent of your your pressure.
Thesis mainly through a discussion of of Contagion but I like it as.
How is the antagonistic Force at pressure for making the protagonist make choices.

[1:47:32] Finally they make a different choice and that makes at different choice all the more powerful.

Stu Willis:
[1:47:36] 111 final thought the country codes mean.

Excerpts:
[1:47:36] 11 final thought the country codes mean.

Stu Willis:
[1:47:40] Part 10 I talked about my thesis at that point was less useful for writers but so this is maybe an observation while in it all which is you know I was saying that they’re dead.
Seen antagonist all the sequence antagonist of the ACT antagonist all the show antagonist whatever it is is kind of related to the central dramatic question.
And I guess what’s interesting about these nature films even though they kind of seem to have really clearly articulated characters.
Is that almost all if not all the questions there this stage many questions on a sing level or a sequence level r plot belated that’s where.
Dramatic questions come from left so there may be a character question that shapes the overall thing like an All Is Lost in the grave and I guess there’s kind of an tag questions in.
Contagion Contagion contagious Odyssey.

Excerpts:
[1:48:40] I just don’t get it.

Stu Willis:
[1:48:44] You know but it feels like that sexy too funny thing about that too complex that come out of her nature is that they manifest themselves as pop questions.

Chas Fisher:
[1:48:54] Exactly what you just said in terms of what are the.
Disney’s nature antagonist keep posing pot questions of their characters and their the reason why they pluck questions as because it’s not another,
person is not digging deep into the soul bit because as we keep harping on about the pressure that is forcing these protagonist to make decisions is revealing their character and.

Stu Willis:
[1:49:22] I think that’s actually really good place for a stick and it leads to what we gonna be talking in the next episode which is vs Wells and vs or vs systems we’re gonna be talking about.
At this stage Minority Report mudbound The Lobster,
and I think the Planet of the Apes at least to me and I think what’s interesting is that constantly presenting those kinds of them all questions it’s the characters worldview is being challenged,
and it’s how they react with the kind of antagonistic forced the pressure on them he’s on their worldview and if that’s what’s happening to the Matt Damon character before our she’ll be called the Matt Damon character.
Is that his worldview is being challenged any.
Not watered His Educated that he can remain moral where is the Jude Law character doesn’t.
You kind of cigars it comes to it we we go back to dunkin’ sajan in systems and I think it would have would have worked but it’s good that we done it here cuz I kind of lizards elegantly into the next episode so.

Chas Fisher:
[1:50:24] Elegant elegant Lee is a strong word.

Stu Willis:
[1:50:26] Elitist awkwardly as only we can into the next episode for whenever that comes out.

Excerpts:
[1:50:29] As only we can into the next episode for whenever that comes out.

Chas Fisher:
[1:50:34] Jack this is all your fault.

Stu Willis:
[1:50:37] We nearly there this is nearly now over half way fucking flailing so.
Although many things an alarm pigeons for encouraging us a KakaoTalk to patrons Paul Sandra Rob Christopher yoga mcrobb you people are particularly awesome you are the wind beneath our broken sale.

Chas Fisher:
[1:50:57] You are are internal antagonists not,
necessarily are external antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[1:51:04] I’m your instantaneous and you know what’s mine my bladder.

Chas Fisher:
[1:51:10] Oh yeah for those of you We’ve added it out stew pink twice in what was supposed to be a shorter episode.

Stu Willis:
[1:51:18] Stop.

Chas Fisher:
[1:51:20] I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general and you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draught,
open xero.com at the website you also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes as well as links to support us and spread the word for free,
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