Dz-50 – Antagonists! (Part 2) – Vs Self

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Stu Willis:
[0:00] And that’s something we should have pointed out of the beginning and maybe we should point out the beginning buy you anything this and say something about Little Miss Sunshine yourself and part of the reason that herself is it there is a lack of a Cleveland.
As we all go into.

Chas Fisher:
[0:22] Hi I’m Chas Fisher.

Stu Willis:
[0:24] And I’m still Willis.

Chas Fisher:
[0:25] And welcome to draught Xero a podcast way to Aussie filmmakers try to work out what makes great scream players work.

Stu Willis:
[0:31] Any Miss episode part 2,

Intro: Vs Self

[0:34] we are trying to work out what makes great antagonistic forces work this is part 2 of a series on forces of antagonism if you ever listened to part one we really recommend you start there otherwise you might get a little bit lost.

Chas Fisher:
[0:48] Because we’re just going to make references to stuff that you haven’t heard.

Stu Willis:
[0:51] Any missed part of an episode we are going to be talking about self we’re going to talk about where the antagonistic force is the self against,
broadly speaking the protagonist but it could be the main character could be the point of view character it could be I don’t know.

Chas Fisher:
[1:08] 1 important sit there a distinction I am going to reiterate from last episode is we did distinguish between antagonist as.
Being an obstacle that creates conflict and and it antagonist I mean antagonistic forces and antagonist as a force of change on.

Stu Willis:
[1:30] I am your antagonistic oils.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34] My point being the three films that we decided to look at it as get me many times as we got a huge list of films to reference but the three films we’re going to explore in detail from the lines of how.
The protagonist himself is the main source of antagonistic force are.

Stu Willis:
[1:54] Little Miss Sunshine Shane Monster and if you get to it will talk a little bit about the TV series mindhunters.

Chas Fisher:
[1:59] Are we gonna do them in that order.

Stu Willis:
[2:00] Yeah I mean to me sometimes in Campbelltown.
Where I would like to start because I think this is an important Distinction is it there is a category of found in which,
the internal conflict the vs Self conflict is externalised quite literally in a secondary character so in Fight Club,
there is dirt Jack and there is Tyler durden that is about the inner conflict between Jack and tornado and then he’s manifested exceptionally,
notably with Tyler durden being Brad Pitt you know the manifestation of his kind of inner desires of who wants me but also Black Swan.
The internal conflict of Natalie Portman character whose name is Gabe thing.
Is um whether it’s hurting me with mental illness all the pressure is have a job is manifested another character in inside out the internal conflicts of the girl.
I manifested in on then movies Cage’s and I get like Herman’s head before that just like inside out for adults like the conflict of Hermans was manifested with all this guy just cause I think what is challenging about this what was challenge about this topic,
is the bees and every all getting the detail of that when you are dealing on a dramatise screen story.
If you were dealing with internal conflict that you have to find ways to traumatiser which means that you end up putting things out to external complex weather there pot complex what character complex he’s out these internal storage kind of a category of.

[3:31] Most of you genre that relates to self is the addiction movie which is kind of,
you know thinking Leaving Las Vegas or postcards for the edge or Prozac nation cage stealing with their addiction but their addiction becomes a form it creates the obstacles and creates the.
The forces of change for these characters to either submit to their addiction or to overcome.

Chas Fisher:
[3:55] Weather thing they have to come over come while they may still be external sources of antagonist that either inspire them or push them back into their addiction what they have to overcome as themselves.

Stu Willis:
[4:08] We have decided to not really only look at those films because they ultimately if you external I can fight club.
Text analyse that struggle to Tyler durden coming antagonist really it’s a VS.
Human story like the weight dramatically the destroyed works and in terms of the way you structure your sequences in your scenes and the dramatic questions you ask but come.
Becoming a person that’s completely Gin and I trying to say it’s the wrong way to do it it’s just that they sold their dramatisation Problems by pop kind of pushing into another Style,
and as we will get to what is interesting as in the vs nature films the way they manifest the internal character stuff is through or off and through.
Environmental factors so we’ll try this kind of left us with a little bit more of it in between Meadows genre of stories where the,
character question drove the story to be internal conflict of the characters drove the story but was not externalising to quite the same extent.

Chas Fisher:
[5:13] Yes.

Little Miss Sunshine

Stu Willis:
[5:15] Mister Maker Miss Sunshine.

[5:52] Miss Sunshine.

Chas Fisher:
[6:08] I think look I think it’s interesting because it’s it’s not a bit while first call it’s light it but it’s also not a film.
That I think most people would think of because it’s an ensemble moving because it’s a comedy where most of the antagonistic forces are actually.
Sprouting from.
The protagonist himself and I say himself deliberately because in the context of this film it’s the Greg Kinnear character if we looking.

Stu Willis:
[6:36] Richard.

Chas Fisher:
[6:37] Richard Yap if we looking at protagonist as.
From the very specific definition of who takes the first action and who drives the plot it is Richard who makes all the decisions.
The drive the plot he gets to choose whether they go to the Little Miss Sunshine pageant he decides to drive off and visit that.
Publisher horror members name play by Bryan Cranston he.
Famously is the one that decides to kidnap his fathers dead body from the hospital and drive off and finally he’s the one who decides to get up on stage and dance with his daughter.
Piercing control the part that’s not to say that it is in an ensemble film where every other character has.
You know wonderful journeys and moments I think possibly Toni Collette is the only one that the only character that his wife is.
Really poorly serviced by the film but in that film nearly business so many obstacles I mean wonderfully is.
The car.

Stu Willis:
[7:49] The Garrett song.

Chas Fisher:
[7:50] The vet did they come as they go driving starts breaking down to the point that they can’t actually stop the car.

[8:00] So what did you know this this all bosses you don’t need the clutch to change from from the 3rd to the 4th you only really need the clutch to go from number 12 number.
As long as you keep forgetting 24 hour you start her and then you go for 34.

[8:24] What if you’re not on a hill.

Chas Fisher:
[8:45] But I do like loops around buildings and things Lygon has to run in and get in and then.

Stu Willis:
[8:51] Put the movie Speed it with a VW that couldn’t slow down.

Chas Fisher:
[8:52] And then and then the horn breaks and the horn is constantly going off.

[8:58] You cut me off.

Stu Willis:
[9:03] To the point where the horn breaking down gets the police get attract the attention of a highway patrol to pull them over.

[9:19] So what you want.

Stu Willis:
[9:20] To pull them over when they got the dead body wake up.
Of fair isle of his dad in the back of the car,
example the force of antagonism VW itself but that only came into being that force of antagonism actually float from Grand Canyon absolute.
Meat box movies want to put his daughter to prove his theories about I don’t know.

Chas Fisher:
[9:45] Winners and Losers.

Stu Willis:
[9:46] Coaching winners and losers correct.

Chas Fisher:
[9:48] I mean that that’s the thing like the his whole character journey is trying to set up a career as a writer and content creator and you know motivational speaker around a self help program but there is 7.

Stu Willis:
[10:03] Not doing very well himself.

Chas Fisher:
[10:04] His 7 Step Program defines everyone as winners or losers.
And in which he is constantly measuring people as winners or losers and yet as you say you know the irony is he’s constantly losing but he’s making all of his decisions based on would a winner do this all would a loser do this.
In his within his paradigm.

Stu Willis:
[10:25] So it’s much as you say coming back to walk to him out in part one as much as you can say he’s the protagonist of History he’s also the antagonist because he’s journey by dragging in the rest of his family forces them to also clinic confront their own.

Chas Fisher:
[10:41] Yep but.

Stu Willis:
[10:42] I like I like it like a magazine subscription every day to hear the number of issues at least I’m so as you say the only one that is the only one that kind of need.
Fixing you know that she’s only one without a clearly defined wound or a heel.
We don’t really like this guy so you’ve got Steve Carell playing Frank who is he.

Chas Fisher:
[11:13] Her brother correct.

Stu Willis:
[11:15] So he’s closer to her her pay to win is another character.
And Frank is had a bad a relationship you know how to be a crush on an undergraduate one of his no graduate students student’s purchase on students.
And that backfired and that’s when it went off with another Professor Aaron.

[11:36] The boy that I was in love with in love with another man very sugarman Lily Sugar Sugar Man is perhaps the second most highly regarded to scholar.
Eat me rich boy.
That’s 10 what happened was I was a bit upset.
So I said some things that I shouldn’t have said I did some things that I shouldn’t have done it such a belly I was fired from my job for out of my part in 20.
And that’s when you tried to actually happened was 2 days ago Carter foundation in its internet was awarded a Genius Grant Larry sugar.
That’s when I decided to check out early.

Stu Willis:
[12:28] So that’s his thing is dealing with that issue then you got Paul Dano playing Dwayne which is is it Punchy.

Chas Fisher:
[12:35] Tourniquet person from another marriage.

Stu Willis:
[12:38] Yes he’s going to read in each is taking a shower of then save me silence mutism.

Chas Fisher:
[12:44] As he’s as he’s trying to prepare to join the Airforce ugly.

Stu Willis:
[12:48] Yes and then you’ve got all of which is the daughter who’s the one who wants to be the beauty queen and they set up in such a way that we kinda guy yeah she’s not necessary the beauty queen type and then you’ve got Alan arkin,
playing Edward who’s the aforementioned soon to be dead father of Richard who is a recovering addict drug addict.

Chas Fisher:
[13:11] Well not I don’t know he’s not know he’s been kicked out of the nursing home because he’s been using drugs.

[13:18] What happened at sunset Minna Gilligan what happened money.

[13:29] It’s trying to snorting heroin what’s up I’ll kill you what am I an idiot and don’t use that taking it when you go crazy to do that stuff.

Chas Fisher:
[13:38] He seeing the end of his life and he wants to have sex with as many women as you can and do as much cocaine is.

Stu Willis:
[13:44] Haven’t even to heroin but whatever.

Chas Fisher:
[13:46] Is that ok sorry.

Stu Willis:
[13:49] The point is they each have clearly a major have clearly defined problems.
That they need to overcome by the end of the film and their internal their of their own making,
even Paul Danos a the main character appears to be an external thing which is the his goal is to be in the air force that soon manifested a 7.3 that his problem is internal because he’s.
Colour blind that’s a plot think that he’s better playing around with some things me realise is that he’s call by which means he’s not going into the air force and so it is internal thing is one of my going to do with myself.

Chas Fisher:
[14:24] Well part of it is also the route one of the reasons it becomes clear that he wants to join the Airforce is just to escape his family.
And you know one of his internal his internal Johnny is actually to come and embrace his family for such as they are.

Stu Willis:
[14:39] And Richards thing is get given up on picking up people as Winners and Losers.
I guess cause I think the idea is a he actually probably feels himself is a sore loser and Matt that’s kind of his his want.
Is to publish his book and be a winner in his is needed to accept himself which actually all of his cage is just need to accept to themselves I mean the quote Edwin is the most,
he doesn’t super had a journey Kai becomes a force of and becomes a force of antagonism when he dies.

Chas Fisher:
[15:13] Yeah but he’s also a force of antagonism constantly like his is transgressive.

[15:18] No you’re home and I’ll but maybe you can appreciate this you got a nice places this for women traffic I can you imagine what that’s like you must be very busy I had 2nd degree burns oh my god you’re not really.

Chas Fisher:
[15:33] Who we got an excellent summary here of what their wants and needs are and how the journey itself as well as + obstacles.
Forces them to move away from their wine and address their character need but the reason why we’re doing this,
episode here and not in the vs humans is nearly all of the plot obstacles are created by Richard and his.
Journey is entirely,
you know that the thing that he has to overcome is himself he is the obstacle to his own happiness so not only does his approach like create the plot obstacles that he has to overcome there also his own internal character quest.

Stu Willis:
[16:15] And what he says to olive is at the beginning he’s basically.

[16:21] There’s no sense in every contest if you don’t think you’ve been a weird so do you think you can let me in I Miss Sunshine Richard.

Stu Willis:
[16:40] There’s no point going unless you think you can win this thing.
Right then he ends up putting a lot of pressure her that ultimately build up at the m where he or she thinks he thinks and she thinks that she can’t when compared to all the other Kinder unfortunely hypersexualised.
I’m pretty girls.
As do with a patent and we can’t even know that he was thinking that and he’s got doubts because I need to prove yourself family which I guess is part of it he’s want is to prove we need is depression something from the family but he doesn’t get it being what he wants,
he he ultimately proves himself to his family by getting up and dancing with olive at the end.
That’s how a prison cell Swiss family and that’s a.

Chas Fisher:
[17:26] But he’s not trying to prove himself to his family he gives up on winning and losing and measures it by the sheer joy of dancing to Superfreak.

Stu Willis:
[17:35] Get a matter we actually succeeding you know like the Chinese finger trap you know.
Giving up on trying to impress them he actually wins them over and wins them all over make some comfortable.
Intensive care of herself so clever about this him as you say there’s all these plot obstacles do with a VW when and then what what do they do when when Alan arkin characters die how they had to smuggle amount of the vehicle I thought,
write in a fun plot obstacles but the character obstacles are set up really early and Richards,
hard questions like a book character obstacle is ghetto wheel he.
Is a hard one particular which makes it which makes me makes me feel coming back to our sequence questions episode makes it feel that he is a character question because when we see him in that room giving my true about being a winner on we cut and then we cut to the audience it’s very small life like.
You’re the guy when are you going to realise it maybe you’re one of all users that they’re talking about all when are you going to become a winner it’s winner It’s a Hard Thing to ejaculate and because it’s a hard thing articulators what action make that pay off.
Happen again because it’s about him accepting who is you know and who is failures.
He needs to learn the subtle art of not giving a fuck that’s really want.
Today definitely a vanity to him is bowling alley want to be perceived.

Chas Fisher:
[19:02] He is brought a before he becomes to embrace at his low point which is.
Very closely tied to the low point of the film which is the farthest Grandpa’s death he’s low point is realising that his publishing opportunity is never going to happen.

Stu Willis:
[19:22] Stan Grossman you.

[19:23] Stan.

[19:37] No one’s heard of you nobody care.

Chas Fisher:
[19:41] He is a loser and so.

Stu Willis:
[19:44] Or his I prefer to think of all the way.
Said University trying to make a deal with Walter White briefly put it back in Motion.

Chas Fisher:
[19:54] He is confrontation his internal question he gets confront of the fact that I am a loser so what value what do I drive for in life now that I am the very thing that I’m trying to teach people not to be any fines value elsewhere.

Stu Willis:
[20:10] And it’s manifested an antagonist wants to configure seekins antagonists right once they actually arrived.

Chas Fisher:
[20:17] The pageant.

Stu Willis:
[20:18] Pageant there is the pageant all night so I don’t know what name she’s barely she’s just a villain and she’s the one who wants to stop I’ll leave dancing to Superfreak with this kind slightly stripped easy.
Dance fit hilariously,
are Arkham character Edwin had chiropractor and she said that at the getting the preteen that the other girls doing a car more disturbing,
does have a presenting themselves and said she operates as an antagonist cause at that point of the film The cases and no longer port.
Richard’s ultimate I’m going to resolve these issues but even Frank and Dwayne kind of resolve their internal issues Olive,
really I think that point she does dgaf and that kind of her Johnny is it she has to realise that she her desire to win the beauty pageant ultimately is less important than her wanting to be herself.

Chas Fisher:
[21:19] Yeah I think I’m not sure if she has that she’s almost like the the dramatisation of Richards problems in that you know she she’s just a girl.

Stu Willis:
[21:28] Cheap bike to Tyler durden to his Jack.

[21:34] Loser loser loser.

[21:41] How do you spell zeros back up a minute I will lose somebody that’s afraid of my winning they don’t even try.

[21:54] You try and write
music we can have fun them right.

[22:04] Call maulik White out.

Chas Fisher:
[22:07] You know talking about key scenes is actually a scene where it almost the entire plot of the film plays out which is in a diner in the middle where she wants to order ice cream.
And her dad starts trying to encourage me basically tries to fat shame her saying.

[22:24] Ok but I’ll let me ask you this those women and Miss America are they skinny or fat.

[22:36] Honey can you use your ice cream on a iMac with your waffles in the same.

[22:53] Vanilla ice cream.
I was not going to have a rain here do you mind if I have a little bit let’s do dinner,
really good I hope you’re sober anybody that does not enjoy the race or early in the morning that’s good you should want to have some his wife was awful.
Eat it.

[23:28] Hi doll.

Chas Fisher:
[23:30] Anyway that plays out all the beats of the entire film other than you don’t get the beat we Richard Richard loses but he doesn’t join in.

Stu Willis:
[23:39] At the end of the film is everyone out wow he’s the first one to kinda ice cream in a way we just to Dad tomorrow.

Chas Fisher:
[23:44] Yeah exactly absolutely I mean look kids,
it’s a bit if we haven’t made this clear it’s a wonderful movie but I just the reason why we chose it is unlike the next to film shame and monster it’s interesting that we can pinpoint a movie what is an ensemble.
Almost borderline fast in terms of.
So many mini putt obstacles in there beware the primary antagonist to the protagonist is himself.

Stu Willis:
[24:14] 145 thought that popped into my head is you know we did three billboards in the previous part and those characters are all kinds of the antagonist to each other and that they Force and change in the sunshine in some ways.
Greg Richard Richard is the antagonist in that by choosing to take my history he’s forcing them to change but what is interesting is,
you fight the character antagonist in that he’s forcing the cage to change but their internal obstacles or whatever they need to overcome their character wins for Dwayne and Frank.
And maybe Oliver maybe Edwin is Internet there at the internal optical so I haven’t not clearly articulated and then maybe the next two examples will help us.
Like that but maybe they can be something that there’s an internal optical but an external antagonist to the force of change is external but the obstacle itself is in Turner.

Chas Fisher:
[25:08] Yeah I mean yeah absolutely.

Stu Willis:
[25:10] I think Shane actually is that maybe we should do shame shame next because I think he’s what he needs overcome.


[25:20] His obstacle is in town.
I mean what we really talking about is obstacles that these antagonistic forces in his broad categories of conflict vs nature vs cell vs a human.
The society is the obstacles not the forces of Change.

Chas Fisher:
[25:38] Yeah I’m just saying and will get into this in in shame I think you’ve got a scene you want to talk about and I’ve got to send that I want to talk about where I think the antagonistic force in my scene.
Is very clearly an inspiration to change she’s not an obstacle to anything it’s other than to his addiction.

Stu Willis:
[26:00] Speaking of addiction films we are doing shame it which is a film about 8.

Chas Fisher:
[26:06] Fassbender penis.

Stu Willis:
[26:08] Michael fastmember.
Just a heads up the chain is a film deals with sex addiction in the film itself is quite sexually explicit so I Gotta Feeling out of cash I might dear into that Territory as well plus the except themselves so if you want to.
Skip ahead to the next film it is Monster please use the tap the button on your Podcast Player.

[26:50] Good doing some work do you want to.

Stu Willis:
[27:38] It was a lot of Michael Fassbender Brandon is his name.
He lived a life of ritual and that is clearly set up in the first date which is the basically goes out of has sex with prostitutes a masturbate soon,
what’s the pornography in feet in the film uses visual storytelling in a great way to set this up and,
but even I guess that’s moment of him on there the train worry it’s incredibly simply shot found but we make eye contact with woman is but it’s very sensual and very sexual.
But that’s in to cut with the rest of his rich wisdom that we see it not as a moment of only inciting incident he’s married woman on train.
In fact because of the way the stories told around it we get the sense that this is a Liberty will do every time that he will see someone he likes them all praise him chasing after her is an indication of that and that we get the sense very early on,
that he is a slave to his exhibition addiction.

Chas Fisher:
[28:36] I mean to the point that he’s masturbating in the office and.

Stu Willis:
[28:41] It’s a fact clearly affecting his work performance that taking his computer.

[28:46] You know what’s going on with my computer and I have someone go to call me.

[28:57] I’m gonna virus.

Stu Willis:
[28:58] Invocation of the time being because he’s you know. Pornography and probably install stuff on at all.

Chas Fisher:
[29:04] I mean that that is the one.
I think plot question in a very character driven film the only kind of question is Will his.
What are the ramifications of his work computer coming back no doubt loaded with porn it’s the only kind of sort of hanging.
Nice I don’t know what you call it ticking clock.

Stu Willis:
[29:27] I’m I couldn’t I kind of think the pot there is a pocket with the Arrival with his sister but it’s not.

Chas Fisher:
[29:33] So what what what do I do tell me articulate the plot question of the arrival of his sister.

Stu Willis:
[29:38] Not your right to support question as close is it because there is a question which is what will her arrival do to his life.

Chas Fisher:
[29:45] But that’s an internal question really.

Stu Willis:
[29:48] It’s not a question that’s got a clear which we talk about him and sequences episode so interesting to keep on coming back to that any idea what any key identifiers of a question is it I’ve got to come here.
Gibbon tradable whether it’s dramatic or visual answer right him having his computer taken.
Because they found stuff on it it’s got it clear demonstrator ball outcome.

Chas Fisher:
[30:11] Willy be fired on.

Stu Willis:
[30:12] Her arrival.
And that’s a really useful thing will come to talk about the specifics things because I think the overall plot with him thing is addiction is ultimately the character question is will Brandon recognise the destructive destructive.
That is there at that point there’s no.
Like other it’s so cute in the sense it’s affecting his work so the idea of one of the Tells of an addiction is that it becomes a behaviour the Dominator bye bye hater so you give up and other things like such as work too.
Give in to your addiction.

Chas Fisher:
[30:50] Asim azhar introduction to the scene that you want to talk about I think one of the reasons why it is not seen as overly.
Destructive is not painted as a good way but he seems to be functioning and seems to be relatively happy if isolated but I didn’t want of the reasons why.
Comes off that way is to fold one they’ve casted might cool they cost Michael Fassbender to his boss.
Despite not being or not the where oh where being is a sex addict is a is a worse representation of toxic masculinity then Brandon the sex addict.

Stu Willis:
[31:32] So yeah I want to speak my lesson because this is a,
very cartigen something that the questions was largely resolve around catering it feels what is very intensities in terms of character and Brandon,
when on a brand and will confront the truth of who it is but it’s not questioning will let you know.
Will they defeat Hans Gruber just example first episode off then I will offer you a windy beauty pageant AS Colour question for a Little Miss Sunshine.
Methods like more bakery to do with like Brandon recognising is his sex addiction and what he’s going to do about it.
He said do it after this thing in a little bit his sister arrives and that comes in signing answer the middle part of a famine that is kind of weapon gets a little bit more bloody but not so much it’s not really heavy stuff.
This thing is quite till like to grow and that’s because David.
Friends bus there out for drinks that had a successful pitch.
And friends there and they just having a good time because it’s been successful in David sees a group of women having sitting at the bar and it’s like I’m in it.

[32:41] Motorcycle t-shirt 54321 boom 125 clutch setup.

Stu Willis:
[32:55] David goes in talk to this girl and he’s constantly feeling like he’s being a chump.

[33:04] Hey listen I want to be around the bush I think you’re absolutely gorgeous my name is David Elizabeth I have a drink how about you.

Chas Fisher:
[33:17] I mean like he’s trying to buy their interest.

[33:22] Hero 6.
Attention to detail and I like I like this game.
Drink drink drink from the cold how do you do that so quickly it’s amazing it’s amazing.

Chas Fisher:
[33:43] And he guess is wrongly and that’s just a clear indication that he wasn’t paying attention to her didn’t notice her.

Stu Willis:
[33:49] She is an appointment she offers the question that she has shown as like I say characters she is.
Got agency in her life I think that’s good that she’s as much as she’s the objective David’s desire that I like the way that they write her is no there’s the sense that there’s something under the surface but it’s important because I think in some ways.
We can have a baby at this a thing in some ways this scene is David has a protagonist using to hit on a woman in a woman being an auntie in a romantic comedy this would that’s how this thing would go.
This isn’t a scene about David so this is the same about Brandon.

Chas Fisher:
[34:29] What important.

Stu Willis:
[34:30] This is a female brain.

Chas Fisher:
[34:31] Brandon is not driving this seen nor does he have any wants or needs in this scene.

Stu Willis:
[34:37] Buddhist end up going up to them realising like answering the question about her eyes is good looking accurate.

Chas Fisher:
[34:42] Answering it accurately because he thought for all of his addiction he notices people or at least women.

[35:01] He just being colours around we have you know what.

Stu Willis:
[35:06] He pays almost too much tension and we’ve got it got back from his making eye contact with the woman with it with the engagement ring.
Close ups in her eyes and her legs so obviously attentive and makes people feel I’ve got a tension in squid that she likes him.
I mean ultimately David keeps on basically being an average guy and they win and go off and Brandon put David in a cab and sends davidoff.

[35:36] OK I’ll see you tomorrow.

Stu Willis:
[35:37] And brain is walking along with the woman at the club pulls up in her car and says hey do you want a lift.

[35:43] What arrived.

Stu Willis:
[35:51] 11 to the headset.

[35:55] Not on a quiet street against the wall.
And it’s interesting to me because you couldn’t some ways a brand of kind of the antagonist in the same but I think it’s actually more of it like he is 2 days of it so the woman I don’t think brand is the protagonists nothing at all.

Chas Fisher:
[36:11] Yeah absolutely not.

Stu Willis:
[36:12] Babies making the voice first voiced David is made the first choice because I go and speak to these women.

Chas Fisher:
[36:18] So can you say that again it was that the voice.

Stu Willis:
[36:21] Waste points outdated makes the first choice which is to go in talk to these words Brandon it comes along as like a supporting character is the woman that is challenging David.
Constantly and he is trying to stand up to her challenges or her she tests if you want to use that kind of that language and he failed.
And brandons alton-lee the one who gets to sleep with her but he’s almost a point of view character she’s interest in him but he doesn’t take much action.
Entering a film it’s about character it feels like this is got movement because the rock it’s not that there is no protagonist it’s it that protagonist in this scene is not a main character.
Any factory in Target is not at main character at all he’s an Observer.

[37:10] And that is repeated importantly so sissy his sister turns up in his house.

[37:18] I’m going to come xx.

[37:24] Ok we’ll talk to a few days and see what might be an arsehole.

[37:40] What expect.
Look you give this whole plan you get your ass up and leave every morning.
50 ok.

Stu Willis:
[38:01] Basically she’s like a lounge singer and Brandon and David go to see.
Her perform which is New York in New York and there is some idea of history and review of my history between Brandon and her but ultimately we again seeing David fight with.
Sissy in a kind of like a mirror of this scene.

[38:35] Can I see you again please or is that too forward I just I find you fascinating.

[38:42] Did you ever get a fascinating creature I’d love to see you again listen by the way this is Cellarbrations get champagne champagne.

Stu Willis:
[38:51] But it’s clear because it’s a sister that she is now his antagonist in this mill section the film.

Chas Fisher:
[38:58] Well it’s the film does some very interesting things because it’s his sister is the one woman he can’t sexual lies in the film.
And interestingly the very first time we meet her he walks in on her in the shower naked.

Stu Willis:
[39:14] Yes.

Chas Fisher:
[39:15] You’re so comfortable being naked around him and he is not I guess you know not that he’s sexuallising her but he’s not comfortable around a sexual intimacy.
And that’s in her as it as a result of his addiction so.
Yep they go and have that but they they go to see her perform as you say it’s the mirror of the the previous bar scene but once again David is the observer once again his disgusting boss who is married and has kids,
he’s trying to pick up someone B’s trying to pick up Brandon’s sister and is successful.

[39:53] And upon hearing them have sex in Brandon’s own bed.
He goes out for a run and that is the.
Motivation for the scene that I want to talk about in the swim and is not actually seen it’s a sequence so it’s a couple of scenes.

Stu Willis:
[40:13] I think I think this couple of days comments that these moments when City challenges Brandon and brand as life she is an antagonist but she’s not a plot obstacle.

Chas Fisher:
[40:24] Yeah very much.

Stu Willis:
[40:25] She’s a products Queen so far is that she’s in his apartment he wants get the fucken rid of it.
That’s closest but it’s not like she’s locking the door and him or anything like that but she is an antagonist in that she fixed back to him the truth of who he is.

[40:40] I make you angry all the time and I don’t know why.

[40:50] Force me into corner and trap me
I got nowhere else to go.

[40:59] You look so fucking shit is that my brother.

Stu Willis:
[41:03] They found a way to kind of externalise his internal dilemmas but only by her talking to him about it.

Chas Fisher:
[41:09] Well absolutely this scene is further ahead of where I want to talk about bit the clear view that she’s a plot obstacle.
To him and a character of school as well is when she comes home walks in on him masturbating in his bedroom.

[41:41] Haha love the fucking door Brandon school.

Chas Fisher:
[41:46] He chases around at the room she then finds like there the sex live web chat that he was talking to.

[41:57] Are you Brandon’s girlfriend.

[42:04] Do you want to play.

Chas Fisher:
[42:08] It forces him to kick her out of his apartment but then it forces him to throw away all his pornography in all these computers.
He tries to make a conscious change for good Edward away from his addiction good I don’t want to put labels on this and that scene is in the middle of the sequence that I want to talk about can I can I head into it.

Stu Willis:
[42:30] Yes.

Chas Fisher:
[42:31] Ok so Brandon as previously flirted across the work office space with a coworker call Marianne and.
After the the night of a obvious sister sleeping with his boss he asked her out on a date.
And it’s just a proper dinner date it’s actually.
You got a sensibly not a very good date you know like it feels very awkward a lot of it is in one single take where it doesn’t feel like they’re having a super close connection you know.

Stu Willis:
[43:09] And a waiter waiter in a way as being an obstacle superimposing.

Chas Fisher:
[43:12] Yeah yeah yeah they were the waiter is fantastically awful at his job.

[43:19] White bread Randy kiln why so late but if you like it like.

[43:33] Late.

Chas Fisher:
[43:34] And like even fit even when they’re walking down the street afterwards and he poses some crappy hypothetical Lake.

[43:40] If you had a choice to live in the past or the future.
Could be anything you wanted to be I would you be less boring.

Chas Fisher:
[43:56] The worst thing you could say on a first date and the date ends in there like at the moment where should they kiss should they not and she just walks away but the point is it’s so wonderful because he’s actually striving for a,
a human human connection at like humans not the right way but in is driving for intimacy not sex.

Stu Willis:
[44:17] And he goes home after that and I’m pretty sure I only thought that’s when sissy discovers him masturbating and they have their argument.
And that leads to him find his laptop eccentric Citra and basically at that point he then disposes of all his pornography.
That laptop in all the other sex related stuff.

Chas Fisher:
[44:42] And.

Stu Willis:
[44:43] Anyways, cleansing himself of this addictive lifestyle.

Chas Fisher:
[44:46] Correct so he did that that’s what he’s and the very next scene is him at going in late getting Marianne out of work and heading to a hotel where he’s previously seen someone else having sex through the hotel.
Window and there he tries to have.
An intimate sexual experience and he can’t he’s impotent and this is you know obviously my point being in those previous things that you’re talking about he’s not been there and the protagonist.
In this scene he’s clearly the protagonist and she is clearly the antagonistic forced she’s the dramatic representation of him defeating his obstacle which is his sex addiction.
She is calling him to overcome his to choose his need over his want.

Stu Willis:
[45:38] Marianne azure.

Chas Fisher:
[45:40] Yeah Marianne is and I think his sister as well right.
So they clearly human antagonistic forces and I use that in terms of their calling for him to change not just presenting obstacles.

Stu Willis:
[45:54] Yep.

Chas Fisher:
[45:55] AT-AT in contrast to the other scenes and he can’t do it he’s impotent his addiction wins.
And she leaves and he calls a prostitute to come sit at they can engage in the exact same sexual act that he saw through the window and that’s starts his spiral of series of.

Stu Willis:
[46:14] He gives into his addiction.

Chas Fisher:
[46:16] You just fully dives into it.

Stu Willis:
[46:17] So he goes home and kicks out his sister.
After she’s like you know it’s an amazing chain but it’s Sheen is amazing scene I’m in tears talking about how they need to help each other and he basically said she’s irresponsible of Burden.

[46:34] You come in here and you’re a wait on me do you understand me you’re a burden you’ve just fucking dragging me down.
How are you helping me
you can’t even clean up after yourself going out.

Stu Willis:
[46:54] Chief city is the antagonist in today’s middle section of the film because she is morning challenges him,
and when doesn’t like where that leads him he throws her out he reject his antagonist and then gives it into his addiction which is this incredible sequence of him hitting rock bottom.
You know we end up going to a gay bar where he looks up with them and then you guys had sex with prostitutes like it’s query.

Chas Fisher:
[47:20] So it’s 3 different sexual encounters you’ve talked about the last two the first one is he hits on a woman in a bar and gets into a fight as a result.

Stu Willis:
[47:31] With it because he basically hits on to her explain to her in graphic detail what he wants to do to her boyfriend comes over and says what did you say to her and he tells him.
You pick a fight and then he beats up he beats up Brandon and that leads to the other two sexual counted and when she is on the way home,
on the trains are very cleverly user point of view because with this point it’s established it’s Izzy is someone that self-harm so there’s a moment early on,
where she’s like teetering on the edge of the subway platform that we’re on on the subway,
and they asked to leave the play ever last leave the train because of a police emergency he tried to call sissy she does not answer,
someone’s his attention become moves from his sexual needs to concerned for his sister,
and we wonder if it was her that committed suicide on the train tracks.
And ultimately he finds her in the bathroom of his flat covered in blood she’s flashed her wrists.

Chas Fisher:
[48:31] So you know here is a clear movie where whatever plot obstacles are created by his addiction and.
His need is a character is to get over that addiction that is creating what few plot obstacles there are I mean the fact is his computer comes back full of porn and they say.
I was filthy some hacker must have got into it or something like that.

Stu Willis:
[48:58] In those intern I think they blame David suggested it was his intern.

[49:04] Your hard drive is still see I don’t we got your computer back I mean it is it is dirty.

[49:11] Things you’re in town
oh wow someone’s fuck your account
with long and r y n cash in fix a really really sick fux spend all day on that shit.

Stu Willis:
[49:22] Earlier in the film it’s got a feeling it happens after.
David slitter City like it somewhere kinda.
Either but a million is interesting moment she’s basically incessantly call David but she’s kind of like I’ve loved at it like she’s her behaviour is obsessive in the same way that that Brandon’s Bay is obsessive just manifest in different ways.
The final this is interesting me this is a binary choice and present it’s a Heroes,
3 out of like an action movie is bit branding and sitting in the subway train and we noticed the woman for the NFL wearing engagement ring on the married whether she’s married now and she starts looking at him,
I eating him on for like a bit of word.
At least you to start flirting with him and Brandon kinda blows into it but when she leaves as opposed to him following her he doesn’t,
that is the extent of his character change over the course of the film.

Chas Fisher:
[50:22] Yes.

Stu Willis:
[50:23] But it’s clear that I can turns of a binder just represent change you the stands follows her or doesn’t and he doesn’t give into these issues fully to feed his addiction.
But you feel like maybe his Focus has shift.

Chas Fisher:
[50:38] Well I think he’s the change I think he wants to yeah where is I think in the beginning of the film he didn’t have any desire to change.
He didn’t see any downside to his addiction I mean we’re not the seeing the combination of him giving into his addiction the sequence worries ending up having sex with two prostitutes at the same time.
It’s extremely graphic but there’s also it ends with it almost looks like he’s an animal.
And it ends with this haunted look on his face and it it’s it’s usually confronting an incredible performance moment that I don’t know how they wrote that on the page I think.
Get fast member to act but yes it is it is a a film that a is.
Remarkable you know lol I think we had trouble finding films where the self is the main antagonist I feel that this is a really great example of that.

Stu Willis:
[51:42] But they had to find keep it to maintain it they brought in sissy because I don’t think in the sense of her being a force for change your arrival I don’t think would have randomly kept on living.
The life he was living until her alright.

Chas Fisher:
[51:59] Yeah and his boss is a source of antagonism because.

Stu Willis:
[52:04] Heath Ledger.

Chas Fisher:
[52:06] Yeah babe it’s not just that I think he sees him as a maybe a sex addict but I’m not that.

[52:13] You’re a dependency you’re a parasite.

Stu Willis:
[52:25] Yeah I’m not I know who I am I and yes conversation about a with Marianne about how it doesn’t leak and commitment.

[52:33] One person for the rest of your life and I mean you come to restaurant sissy couple sitting together and they only speak to another day they all have anything to say they all have any probably don’t want to speak to the collector.

[52:49] Or they just bought.

Stu Willis:
[52:51] So he’s like he is clear that he is these relate which is prolly why is having sex with prostitutes and stuff like that is very clear about that transaction will make sure of his relationships.

Chas Fisher:
[53:01] Is how I put it I think if he were asked who respects women more you or your boss he would have sent a I respect women more and I think the film betrays him as respecting women more.

Stu Willis:
[53:12] Yeah in in its own his own way which is his honest.
I think it’s I don’t think that’s a respect but I think he’s honest I just want to try trying to show you as a permanent is essentially character story about someone that’s in an addict filmed it does external has its non-offensive antagonism.
And even if the journey of internal but finds a way but the question is asked at the beginning of a character question and that force that antagonistic.
Force PCs can animal nature as manifested or demonstrated will dramatise by him running out of a married woman is answered by the end of the felt metallic frames it’s story.

Chas Fisher:
[53:53] So shall we we dive into Monster.


Stu Willis:
[53:57] Before we get into Monster oh just a bit of a warning up front is this is a film is pretty,
heavy going it’s a true story about a real life serial killer and deals with sexual assault sexual violence and molestation.
On top of all the killing so if you’re sensitive just such discussions please feel free to skip forward to the next chapter.

[54:34] I’m going to make some cash.

[54:58] Little ride to question are you from Batman.
You never got it I got it under control now.

Chas Fisher:
[55:28] Hey would you call it a biopic I don’t really know how dramatised it is.
Or not but it’s ostensibly about the the life of Aileen wuornos who was a no famous female serial killer.
In the US and when I suggested this is an example of.
Where the main antagonist is the the protagonist in oa vs Self example you’ll like,
is it and I thought about it for a second inning been a long time since I watch the movie and I’m like you know what I’m not too sure I could be completely wrong on that front but after having rewatch the film I think it.
It leans very heavily onto your review that sequences have protagonist in.
Antagonist and that they can change and I definitely think in the first half of this movie she is not her own antagonist there are external antagonists which we can talk about but in the second half of the film and in fact.
The whole thematic question of the film is about whether she had choice and what she did or not.

Stu Willis:
[56:40] So to summarise the story is that Aileen moves to Florida.
Where she meets selfie you know she said she’s not go there yet drinking me Connie hit up a relationship Aileen promises to take Selby away from her.
Home why such as it is a Aileen is a prostitute which said that I mean is prostitute and then she turns tricks to make money she is Neo.
My other clients front of a John’s like weights and blue laces her and she kill him in self defence for that she tries to go clean and give up prostitution and find legitimate work but because she has no basically work history she is.
Rejected constantly and so she returns prostitution to make money and then she starts can we her John’s in rubbing them but not all of the John’s the film will make painter she is it stuff that she gets people that she determines our.
Badman mallis.

Chas Fisher:
[57:42] I mean if you can wrap up this story because I wanted to talk about those decisions.

Stu Willis:
[57:48] Sway this is a serial killer film,
where we find me know where we’re in the point of view that I print a message this you will keala settle why I guess it’s like The Killer Inside Me which I haven’t seen you don’t better something gangster can like Scarface even though I’ve got those.
Gangsters in fucking murder is motherfuckers anyway but this makes feel make some certain choices to have a frame this journey of the character and the antagonism it is presented to Hayley but I think this is where you want to go.
With it.

Chas Fisher:
[58:16] It will look in in the first sequence clearly Selby is in in the true rom com because it’s it’s like there’s a meet cute.

[58:26] Selby.

Chas Fisher:
[58:31] And there’s a a coming together and as a courtship.

[58:36] Did you go somewhere.
You need to get a room my son.

Chas Fisher:
[58:59] And they genuinely fallen off and it’s actually quite beautiful and so Selby is in her she’s a source of antagonism only she is you know in inspiringly to not be a prostitute.

[59:13] What you say quick cookie dough I could hug why why do I fucking hate it.
I thought you said it was my bad what is your name.
Not everything else so I’m going to do this time I’m doing it up Roy.
How about that but what are you going to do about work if I get a job cleaning up you now.
Spider-Man I get a career.

Chas Fisher:
[59:50] I mean it is it’s a wonderful beautiful love scene right.

Stu Willis:
[59:53] Simile Aileen is inspiring cell because Selby’s been exile Besen family situation is going to be in Exile.

[59:58] This girl in to make sure she told everyone that I tried to kiss her so apparently some people and I decide to come down try to figure things out and let go.

Stu Willis:
[1:00:14] And so just got to go home and Mario basically meet a boy and get married because of parents are religious and aliens aliens like basically saying it’s ok to have for you to be gay.

[1:00:26] So he’s working out and were around happy sad that you could I tell my family cause we’re gonna be breathing kidding for a love that so.
There’s no choice not choosing anything it’s just the way I am and I’m like Em feel bad about them or you can tell him that too.

Stu Willis:
[1:00:49] Aileen.

Chas Fisher:
[1:00:49] Then and then obviously.
The horrific rape and her subsequent self defence killing of her rapist those are external.
These are all external antagonist antagonistic forces.
Then once she decides to give up looking after that she doesn’t tell Selby what happens in originally she just as I’m gonna give up hooking and you’ve got the world being the antagonist no one will employ her.

[1:01:18] I see you’re from Daytona Beach and all that looks great I must be wonderful but can I tell you something when the beach party is over you don’t get to say you know what I think now I’d like to have what everybody else has work too tired for doesn’t work.

[1:01:34] Give me a fuck you know me great that’s great I’m so sorry I didn’t hurry before.

Chas Fisher:
[1:01:43] And you know even there’s a cop who pulls her over and it forces her to have sex with him because he picked her up for hooking previously.

[1:01:58] Send me to Mars told me one.

Stu Willis:
[1:02:10] Played out in Point of View where you think he’s taking out of the police station turns out he’s a steak in Terraria underground car park and yeah it’s horrible.

Chas Fisher:
[1:02:18] At this point in the film all the sources of antagonism are external to her and she gets the point where she says the words.

[1:02:27] Tell her if I can come back till 8 I understand if you can get him to the 71
wanted to go back before it was just such a scared getting kind he was the only reason.

[1:02:44] Haven’t looked into that was dirty in man the fuck my kitten.

Chas Fisher:
[1:02:51] Right and that very first John that she goes back to.
You know there’s some really interesting cinematic techniques where it goes into her head,
and like there’s a loud tone in music going on and notes clearly that she’s suffering some kind of post traumatic stress disorder.
And she ends up killing him.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:14] Because you made some kind of out his daughter or something like that.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:18] No no he says.

[1:03:19] Call me daddy when I talk to him.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:29] I’m out and then we begin to unravel her back story from that point four.
We just told review all very slowly over time which is more left his daughter get into prostitution because like get her father’s quote unquote father which is actually her grandfather friends come around and have sex with Aaron.

[1:03:48] Sheryl fuck man you still smile though so my dad’s you know.
So go to my dad tell me what’s going on my dad all fucking believe me so his friend keeps raping me for years and I can get her to the story is that my dad but can be up for it.

Stu Willis:
[1:04:16] Fucken horrible but it’s very it’s a very slow reveal.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:20] And then she starts as he said she starts doing it for money she starts at picking John’s and.
Murdering them although what is really interesting is that with each John that it shows in the film she is actually presented with a choice there’s one guy who,
who is clearly she she like starts getting herself ready to murder him she starts saying you like a tough how you want it you want to hurt me.
She starts like getting herself worked up ready to kill him and he turns around and says no I don’t like it rough.

[1:04:57] You can fucking problem like you’re fucking time I like it rough.

[1:05:06] I’ve never done this before but I have.

Chas Fisher:
[1:05:13] And she feels sorry for him and I think just jack some often takes his money but it shows that it is a choice now.
There’s two more murders after that that are shown in the film one is.
Of a former police officer who she find out after killing him that he was sleeping with prostitutes cause his wife was in a wheelchair I believe anyway.
She and then the final the final victim is an nice kind man who picks you up and genuinely wants to help her does not pick her up as a prostitute.

[1:05:54] If you need some help I’ll do what I can to get you back with you. But maybe you need a room shower small clothes are so annoying tempt if you wanted and I’m sure my wife would know media.

Chas Fisher:
[1:06:08] And she’s screaming like he’s screaming to her you don’t have to do this.

[1:06:15] You don’t have to you just having a hard time killing you live.
Don’t worry I no worry my daughter is having a baby.
Cutest baby.

Chas Fisher:
[1:06:42] And she has to do it it in the way that the performance at the moment and all that is betrayed and in amongst all these murders is.
Selby and her relationship breaking apart but there’s one a discussion between Selby and her not sure if it’s an aunt or a church for you but someone she was staying with where.
Where the owner saying you can’t blame a tough life for the choices that you make.

[1:07:09] She’s a real hard life we had a meme.

Chas Fisher:
[1:07:24] So that’s a point of view of one side of the film and the other side is Lee saying I feel like I never had a fucking choice.

[1:07:33] Man circumstance that’s exactly it that’s exactly it you know it’s like I feel like I never had a choice.

Stu Willis:
[1:07:43] I think this is a decision that the film is made it well not the film Patty Jenkins who wrote and directed it Patty Jenkins has chosen to frame the pound so as I explained that she.
They have Peter the backstory of.
Aileen that at the beginning we feel like it’s consensual her choosing to sleep with boys because she wants to be a movie star and then we realise it a backstories more Sinister that,
if he’s coming to town Marvel episodes they could have open this to show her character were in better when was it she was sexually abused as a very young child was rejected.
Because effectively her like father of Mum by her father left and she was raised by grandparents at them sold the red box whatever the specific details maybe.
The film could have opened in that way that will very sympathetic and it was presented her.
Quite clear const from first action to like the first moment to final consequence would have been it the serial killer in me is men.
Her killing his name was a consequence of that instead the film is framing at you’re still open with a voice over and it’s kind of her naivety or her head delusion about her upbringing.

[1:08:53] I always wanted to be in the movies when I was little I thought for sure one day I could be a big big star or maybe just beautiful.

Stu Willis:
[1:09:04] And you can’t see dinner sex hurt because it’s pictures but this voice over is contrast it’s the images that tell the story of how Ellie became Hooker it starts with her showing her breasts two boys July the guy sleeping with him and then.
Him paying her to Junee to has become a prostitute in the opening is designed to show the contradictions in her life and her worldview.

[1:09:28] I heard that Marilyn Monroe was discovered in a soda shop and I thought for sure it could be like that so I started going out.

[1:09:52] Marilyn we would somehow believe it just enough they would see me for when I could be in think I was pewter.

[1:10:02] Nice one day to start.

Stu Willis:
[1:10:06] Any sequence ends with her under a bridge playing with a gun and thinking about suicide there is a clear line between what she is saying in the voice over.
What we see is Unfolding in her life and where she ends up at the beginning of our story.

[1:10:21] By the time I’m at Selby wall.

Stu Willis:
[1:10:28] 1st wheel question the film ask is a character question,
will Aileen kill herself in a way and she didn’t kill herself but it’s will be harm herself or why does she want to hurt herself why what is the battle that her thing contemplating suicide is a character question and make sure that what you mean Selby.
This is very similar structure leads what saying did which is that the destructive behaviour of.
Brandon is a first date elective behaviours both with her sleeping with young boys are showing them her,
I’m taking a talking to him a tips and stuff like that pretty young age I meant don’t connect Matt to a suicide we see her destructive behaviour at the beginning we don’t see the destruction or damage that was done to her we see the damage that you trying to do with herself and I think that then,
the rest of the film and I think as of the question and I’m an idea that the kind of antagonistic question or that the question that you’re asking very early on to find the primary and take us for primary complex of the story.

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:29] Yep and you have to the right in terms of structure structure is very important to this is those details about what was done to her or only revealed.
They’re not they reveal before the final murder but they’re revealed after the murder of the former police officer and.

Stu Willis:
[1:11:48] I thought you told Sophie.

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:50] She tell Selby some things.

[1:11:52] My brothers and sisters groupme Royal my dad killed himself will ride on the street and the neighbours at let them stay over but only if I Tint a Car now so I steer clear but I’m having money now.
Haven’t heard anyway so I decided make sure that new clothes and cigarette and stuff like.
But we’re at this party in the sky comes in and he’s like yeah you know she fucks so itself and they’re all embarrassed he’s turning in the corner of.
So they are they they threw me out and it’s now coming up in Omaha in there somewhere and they hate me and all that.

[1:12:37] That was it just took off.
Never look back at her dad and family you’re so fucking horny them.

Chas Fisher:
[1:12:54] The not there about the childhood sexual abuse she said like I’ve had a tough life and it’s hinted at by doing that.
The film is very deliberately not positive her as a victim at the effect of her past but as someone with agency and choice and several those Motors.
I very much like I think the first one when she comes back the the ever said the sound and the performance.

[1:13:29] It’s not a choice.
But some of the other ones are a choice the fact that they’ve shown her letting one of them go shows that it’s a choice the fact that the last murder victim is screaming you don’t have to do this and she’s crying as she does it.
And the fact that you’ve had two conversations before there’s outside of the murders where they’re discussing are you at the effect of your upbringing or do you have choice to me means it’s you know.
The entire back half of the movie she is her own source of complex.
She is the obstacle that needs to be overcome and the obstacle that Selby needs to overcome.

Stu Willis:
[1:14:16] In each of the yes she’s the optical.
And each of the victims are antagonist in a sense that they challenge her preconceptions they me challenge it too late so she cute and the detectives is very.
Kind and gentle compared to some of the others suburb ex police officer but he has a weapon he didn’t tell her about any won’t explain it to her.
Reasons of a come clear afterwards.

[1:14:45] Vs Gatorade here I was god there is fucking going in it
so lots of people have done.

Stu Willis:
[1:14:58] So each of those victims actually challenges her and are a form of antagonist which in that scene right.
I mean I mean by the credit conflict that is resolved by killing them or not in most cases she kills them except for the guy that she.
Ago but we didn’t actually been running run into the woods.
It’s a cheesy ok you meant very quick hand job and that was it and so this is interesting cuz I guess what were trying to drive it is as much as that these primary complex whether it’s vs.
Dresses other people v humans over self always looking into vs nature.
The primary Conflict for me to find by the larger structure the outside in the inside of the film.
In this case the outside of the film is this kind of doing her of her accepting who she is or.
And in his cases got a court case same as a similar kind of thing is back journey of him coming to terms with this addiction we have Greg Richards character in Little Miss Sunshine that Pony Alpha 2 from the inside antagonistic forces a different,
they do kind of challenge what be challenging is different.
Image that the optical seems to have come is as you say internal and I guess compared to the other films.
That we did in the previous part those what they of schools that need to overcome internal but they’re not the creation of Mrs make it complicated right.
Like are they could you say that they’re friends with woman character in three billboards first to self.
Maybe I get to yours and crater in conflict pictures of T-Rex the signs.

Chas Fisher:
[1:16:29] Yep what a thing.

Stu Willis:
[1:16:30] To pick a fight she’s choosing to pick a fight.

Chas Fisher:
[1:16:32] Yeah yeah so I think early on the the antagonist the way that that film is structured.
Presentz Willoughby early on and Dixon as her antagonist right.
And their external to hurt but that in that episode a reference that scene where she’s she’s by herself in bed lying in bed and she’s like talking to herself about what she should do.
And she chooses violence in that moment she is her own and agonist she’s the obstacle to the change.
To her need.

Stu Willis:
[1:17:09] Yeah yeah and I guess in my Monster as well like Selby.
Yeah I’m in such a romantic comedy because me and they have they are like La La Land Selby.
In a way because so we basically calls Aileen for Final time and basically there’s a tell she left slipped it to strike fishing something.
Incriminating and Aileen realise they’re so vain lean.
Moelis times on the angry it makes it clear that Selby was the only person that Selby was not responsible at all they had no idea what’s going on but we have the audience know his lunch.

Chas Fisher:
[1:17:49] I’m an alien nose in that what’s happening in that conversation she knows she’s been recorded she knows she’s asking a Selby what’s going on.

[1:18:00] Selby
what are you talking about I’m out when we crashed the car.

[1:18:08] Why are you so slowly
they know I’m not coming after me and I know I’m going to go down now.

[1:18:21] I wouldn’t do that.

Chas Fisher:
[1:18:25] She knows that they don’t have a case against her.

[1:18:28] Don’t worry about that so mean that say something like that you’re something else just talked about as you know.

Chas Fisher:
[1:18:38] She saying like there’s lots of doubt and that she’s got a strong case and they may have to let her go and she knows that she’s being played.

[1:18:46] Really let me do it I’ll be
I can do anything.

Chas Fisher:
[1:18:54] And she confesses to save Selby.

[1:19:12] I’ll never let you down.

Chas Fisher:
[1:19:51] And you know she’s given a final choice to to Die For Love.

Stu Willis:
[1:19:55] So just because it doesn’t feel like this clear a case of herself and changes what I guess why makes it it’s a rich Hill mess is it safe to me the framing conflict is an internal one as kind in body by the choice to show her with a gun.

Chas Fisher:
[1:20:09] I mean we.
We’ve gotten it is interesting that the films are we got on this does this left his like The Lion King is on here because the Lion King is essentially a retelling of Hamlet but with a happy ending and.

Wrap Up

[1:20:25] The reason that the whole middle actor the film is Simba choosing not to go back to confront his his past it is entirely an internal.
Although the repercussions of what’s happening back in the pride lands are as a relation is a direct result of him and he’s internal.
Decision so I think you know we.
When we were looking at films herself under this very strict paradigm it felt the we were you know either being tip towards films that don’t really get made any more like a very sort of.
You know new wave 70s.
Cinema or we were getting tip towards more ArtHouse films but I really enjoyed the fact that we’ve looked at Little Miss Sunshine and you know we’ve got examples on here like.
The Lion King.

Stu Willis:
[1:21:17] Rereading that question now but give him were kind of like someone halfway through our breakdown.
Is Christmas actually specifically about the lack of a primary antagonist and I think.
Will be with mooring fees question later on but I think hopefully this at the halfway point of our four key conflict areas is that.
Yes in humans vs humans vs Self as Premier antagonistic being forced to manifest in more ways multiple ways and.
In an example of the mindhunter monster shame Little Miss Sunshine there is a primary and Agnes Primary villain.
Force of change that can be the entire that the proteins in cells that we do all these things these decisions and I think will deal with noise question the end but you know I think before going to nature,
which is something I feel like it lacks a villain you know this is next part that.
Ultimately Barrys point me antagonist it it is major it’s just that there’s no villain and I think maybe it is interesting about Little Miss Sunshine.
And Shane the monster is really in comparison to Die Hard and misery,
unless the lesser extent three billboards is there is a lack of the Cleveland and that’s something we should have pointed out of the beginning and maybe we should point out the beginning buy you anything this and say,
resisting about Little Miss Sunshine chain and wants to give us a self and part of the reason that herself is it there is a lack of a Cleveland.

[1:22:48] As we were going to.

Chas Fisher:
[1:22:50] I think I might know I’m about to beginning cause I think that’s a nice Point to end it on.

Stu Willis:
[1:22:56] So given that we’re giving them a come up over the time that we met we set up cells were these parts I did you want to try and review whether or not you’ve had any particular learning.

Chas Fisher:
[1:23:09] I’ve got a few learning but I think my main one is actually harkening back to a feeling I got from Die Hard which was.
The idea of John mcclane was carved out by the antagonistic forces and that was really.
Reinforced in this part vs Self where.
If the self is the antagonist in every single app interaction that character has would be by nature.
Antagonistic you know and and that’s a wonderful byproduct I think of having the self be the generator of both the external and inert articles of the characters but the thing that really.
Blew my mind a little bit was when you were talking about the structure of monster that Patty Jenkins.
Created and how her holding back of the reveal changes what the antagonistic forces in the film are.
If they’ve started with.
Lee’s wound or herb background like her childhood abuse then the antagonistic forces would have been pissy very differently they would have been almost.
No feeling that Lee had character or agency in a lot of her decisions where is by choosing when to reveal it.
Yeah it really hardly out in a cat as a character in a way that I think I will be mulling for some time.

[1:24:41] And yourself tube.

Stu Willis:
[1:24:43] Firstly I’m glad to see that my antagonistic forces leading you don’t know to blow your mind.
That that pretty cold um I guess.
I’m just going to touch on everything that’s not a cheap one but I think one of the things that I’ve been talking about since the first episode to think will be clearer went about disaster films is the relationship between the antagonistic Force and genre in a way.
Thinking about John Rees inherently related to thinking about what your antagonist is there is a version of monster which is.
Where Aileen is actually is the villain that she is the antagonist in Silence of the Lambs it’s cammy’s detect his catch Aileen 40 Kills Again.
Right there is a version of that format.

Chas Fisher:
[1:25:30] Or or even from even a film that take Selby’s point of view even more like he’s someone who should you sell be in to go on a ride into the darkness kinda thing.

Stu Willis:
[1:25:43] And I’m in able to be in big brush strokes there but it is kind of like a brick brushstroke thing.
I suspect when people can see them their ideas they probably conceiving of the antagonistic forces part of it weather in all the conscious of it so you wanted to kind of went out cuz I think I’ll keep on coming back to it.
Speaking of Selby the other thing in this this will lead to a big appointment pressure but I think what are things that we didn’t touch on.
On Monster bit I have been thinking about it kind of hit me and I think it’s related to the other films is the importance of secret.
And it something comes up at I thinking I guess what has come over me when working on television shows the characters needs secrets that they keeping from each other with their consciously telling lies or they’re lying to admission,
this information they don’t want to reveal and in this case Aileen in particular is information she does want to reveal for Selby nearly did she is actually killing so she’s lying about it.
And also confirmation that she does want to reveal to her self but what’s important is loaded scenes between Silvia nailene is it there is pressure.
This is a keyword pressure on a lean to confess to sell me that she’s indeed killing them.
And also I guess it in a way maybe Selby herself her acquiescence if not her affectedly she’s effectively no complice do it’s going on and when,
Aileen makes a choice she’s put under pressure again how to put on the pressure at the end when Selby holes.

[1:27:15] With the offices listening in an alias wanted to pressure to bed either,
to involved or to effectively drive on the hand grenade and take the blame herself to say was all her,
and that pressure results in daily making that decision so I think it’s a very late stage we need to just the idea of pressure.
But it’s something that I do think about a lot and in some ways I think is a rider pressure is a more tangible tool.
Van antagonistic forces as much as reviving technical.
Putting a character under pressure and.
You put under pressure and you keep on increasing the pressure to you force them to make a choice or to change,
and I think that is coming back to the example you can like episode one about the two person running along in the horror movie being chased by the monster of the Killer and then try and use the door handle.
That doesn’t seem like a pretty micarta under pressure because the couch at that point had an escape plan amazing and they need to make a decision in the moment how to be very mine ute,
paper obstacle words like I’ll make they bash the glass in try to hotwire a car or they want in a different direction either way increasing the pressure on the character and I think lies and particular are,
something that you can probably doing most dramas it characters.
Withhold information from each other so you write things in which there under pressure to tell the truth or to confront their own lie and I think that is true live in shame.

[1:28:45] As well he’s lying to himself in certainly is lying to other people about the pawn and everything and he’s under pressure.
And the film find ways to decreasing the pressure on him even though it’s less specifically goal related anything in a Little Miss Sunshine when they get there.
It’s a series of escalation isn’t it.

Chas Fisher:
[1:29:05] Yeah I know and they’re each putting pressure on each other I mean to me I think in future episodes we’re gonna find.
Clearer examples what you mean by pressure.
For the moment I’m going to stick with antagonistic forces in well and I’ll see if you can burn me.

Stu Willis:
[1:29:26] Well it’s it’s more I guess pressure is a sequential it’s a process putting character under pressure can’t got a variable verb is it a verb is it very cool that is terrible English.

Chas Fisher:
[1:29:40] An active.

Stu Willis:
[1:29:42] Yeah it’s kinda active when we go to under pressure is a lot more active than antagonistic Force.
There is putting I’m in pressure is obviously a noun but you can it was also operates as it is a vertical vs depressurise you push you pull whatever then implies all those things I like it because it’s gonna Matt.
Activeness and a bit it’s also a process ultimately the over the course of Shame.
Brandon is pressurised until Ultima he does well we believe he does something about his addiction.
In Monster Aileen the Sequence of Events put her under pressure initially so she’s start committing murders right.
And then ultimately her taking until she then fucks up,
courses that did the Sequence of Events pressures right her until she fucks up and.
She is a police officer gets a quarter coming what actually specifically get to enchant no it’s the car so lationship between her and Selby that leads to them getting caught but ultimately and then she confesses in and then she also takes to complete rats what’s going on.

Chas Fisher:
[1:30:48] Oh ok can I can I jump in on Monster quickly cuz I think what’s interesting is that when Lee starts almost planning murders and choosing to murder when there is.
Not that pressured like she’s not under self defence she’s not suffering from.
PTSD at least that’s how Patty Jenkins represents those the later murders.

Stu Willis:
[1:31:10] But she’s pressurised into doing it because we seen her try to get work and she’s failed to do that she’s been watered.

Chas Fisher:
[1:31:17] Will know she’s pressured to go back into hooking not into murdering.

Stu Willis:
[1:31:20] Yeah buddy.

Chas Fisher:
[1:31:21] And the only choice that she ends up making is to murder people for money so the pressure changes from PTSD or self defence or a lack of choice from her upbringing to being.
Well this is a good way to earn a living or the only way I can earn a living is she in a way she kind of embraces it and.
The only reason I raise that as an example is because I think that’s the point the truck the movies trying to make anyway before we get.
Two lost in the wilderness again just passed a tune for hopefully a.
Relatively quick release of Part 3 of this exploration of antagonist which will be the nature.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:05] And we’ll be here just in case someone watch anything will be looking at all is lost the grey and Contagion.

Chas Fisher:
[1:32:14] Should I jump in and save you.
As always super duper thanks to our Patron support is there what is getting us to try this new format so that we can get more draught 02 you more frequently and in particular thanks to.
Call Sandra Rob Chris yokum and crab.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:36] You guys rule.

Chas Fisher:
[1:32:39] See you I’m going to say see you next week that’s a complete lie more likely to be three weeks but that’s better than a normal release.

Stu Willis:
[1:32:49] And it can’t wait until then to ground for back matter where we discussed mind Hunter and Steve Jobs movie.

Chas Fisher:
[1:32:56] I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general and you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draught open
At the website you also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes as well as links to support us and spread the word for free,
via a rating and review on Apple podcast very important for spreading the word or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar,
or preferably more than a dollar then you can also find links to our Patron page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker.
Thanks and thanks for listening and now for back matter.


Stu Willis:
[1:33:41] I’m in a tangential eyes briefly.

Chas Fisher:
[1:33:44] Yes.

Stu Willis:
[1:33:46] Traffic this is another good example they found that does this which is what I was watching monster right this was the first time I watched it was for this and I can’t help but having watched mindhunter last year was one of the best ones I saw last year.

Chas Fisher:
[1:34:01] A 10 hour movie.

[1:34:04] 40 years ago your FBI was founded hunting down John Dillinger now we have extreme violence between strangers.
Or are they formed.
Psychopath convinced there’s nothing wrong with them so she’s been officially impossible to study that you were found a way in near perfect laboratory conditions lol that’s what makes this so exciting potential so far reaching,
thighs rub off on me the weather if you sex with women it is not our god the commiserate with his people it is our job to electrocute,
like everything we do but talking to serial killers,
in terminology I’m trying to warn you your attitude is going to bite you in the ass in peoples lives,
developing a pattern of behaviour that will not say standing here before you leave I can help you.
Go get in the dirt with the pigs.

[1:35:05] Bill tench this my part of home food from the Federal Bureau of Investigations behavioral science unit we do a research interviewing man like you.
Certainly our goal is to be preemptive Woody FBI all them that is not over yet.

Stu Willis:
[1:35:22] The reason I wanted to bring a mindhunter cause this was any Sting Tower filming I want to go into detail but felt like what was interesting about mindhunter is it the antagonist over the course of the show I have chain.
Right which is that at the beginning of the film out of the show at a Holden.
Is kind of NBN take us to hold in his obstacle really is obstacle a is the FBI herself like him wanting them to modernise.
And Bill tench is kind of the like a person applied antagonist of the FBI.
All tickle his boss the shepherd is his name.

Chas Fisher:
[1:36:06] Yeah I would say the boss more so I definitely tench is an external antagonist in an external human antagonist but it’s more in the late buddy cop kind of thing two different people thrown together on a road trip and how they rub off on each other so.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:20] And they’re all these all these forces and challenging Holden.

Chas Fisher:
[1:36:23] I mean I would say EH Holden challenges change more than Kent tench challenges Holden.

Stu Willis:
[1:36:29] Even in the Mist the kind of how they use Debbie’s Gulf like his girlfriend is it just in case she is.
You know kind of like almost a cappuccino manic pixie dream girl in the context of a cereal cover finches,
show where she is there to enable Holden to become the,
hegel science cuz she opens up his eyes too kind of the villains in psychology but it’s because obviously each each episode structurally is about a,
almost each episode is about a difference you’re killing and they are the antagonist within same but ultimately where the show goes is that Holden in a way,
is the idea that you almost what it’s trying to say is that to catch a psychopath you need to be a psychopath that Holden’s and they make an earlier comment about serial killing it’s actually Wendy Carr he does it.
That psychopathy manifests in different ways and serial killing is one way.
Psychopathy manifests but not the only one stocks out business and to me what is she’s actually talking about is Holden.
That’s kind of a thematic I did that Holden has become.
Come if not always been kind of a psychopath and he’s obsessed with the project that people around you can kinda pretend to have emotions but people are only there to enable him which is why I think which change the kind of relationship to the girlfriend,
a little bit because you go you only seeing him how he sees her which is.

[1:38:02] A tool to enable himself and then the B series filmed ultimately ends with him kind of collapsing in a panic attack at the end because he’s actually actually knowing mint camper,
say that we like doesn’t keep it more or less a we ever say he doesn’t hold you or me end of the year you and me where to say.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:24] Belarc.

Stu Willis:
[1:38:25] About what right but I think the difference is this electric simile into Monster for is not self aware.
I might shame where he is Brandon and Shane Brandon is a where it is addiction but doesn’t see this problem Richard in Little Miss Sunshine doesn’t but I think it is even more.
Oblivious to himself so the upskill he needs overcome is himself but a forces of change are external.

Chas Fisher:
[1:38:54] Yeah yeah absolutely what I say as I mean look at they got the luxury of 10 hours to tell their story.
So they do dramatise his change towards being the antagonist of the show as well as the protagonist.

Stu Willis:
[1:39:11] Yes it can’t be OK yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[1:39:13] Is because they have overtime you know initially he has Allah is like tench is his,
hello his girlfriend is his Ally he’s winning over these serial killers and they see him as a friend everyone looks at him favorably,
and it’s only as his actions it starts with the him getting involved like it starts with him getting cocky and arrogant with the finding of that.
Where they were they sold one murder but then it’s really his involvement with that school headmaster where he sees the impacts of his.
Of his metalink and does not get affected by it.
And you know it it impacts on his relationship such that his girlfriend breaks up with him he’s getting promise with tench and even Shepard who’s been the classic antagonist start seeming like he’s making sense,
so that they got the luxury of time to convert him into.

Stu Willis:
[1:40:12] Those went and seen it and are happy to be spoilt.
In my mind Hunter there’s basically a teacher whose Bayview with children is very questionable at best.
And he becomes involved for becomes involved with the school with this principle waves and he basically advisors the school too.
Drop in because he’s considered a threat to the kids that this inappropriate pinching could lead to something else tickling.
And he ends up in finder many and the wife of this guy comes around and says it was in a harmless you I dare you and you completely Unapologetic by human.

Chas Fisher:
[1:40:56] You later see the that you see you the Pam isolator like drunk and wandering the streets the principal.

[1:41:05] Headmaster such a British term.

Stu Willis:
[1:41:08] Hahaha sorry you get to get your he gets more more again he becomes he he.
Promote stay we duck the transfer but there’s always think yeah he becomes more and more vitamin do I need to use the word and take us because more more the villain to the other characters but ultimately he’s undermining himself is undermining his own purpose.

Chas Fisher:
[1:41:29] And it’s and it’s his lack of it basically the audience is giving an insight into his personality that he does not see.
So he starts becoming the obstacles to his own journey his own want is to you no bring behavioural analysis.
And behaviour profiling into the FBI to update it to save people like you has all these ultra say contentions that he’s seen early on is this altruistic Boy Scout and then it gets to the point where it’s about him.

Stu Willis:
[1:41:57] His fame.

Chas Fisher:
[1:41:58] And he’s working against his own interest and he cannot see that.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:02] You got it so it’s not just that he’s becoming a psychopath a part of those you want see infamy that white chempro wants.

Chas Fisher:
[1:42:07] And that’s what I mean is that he becomes the antagonist because not just is he the antagonist to the other characters but he’s the obstacle to his own objectives.

Stu Willis:
[1:42:21] And I think that is something not dissimilar to the Steve Jobs movie which also has very three very clear axe.

Steve Jobs

[1:42:29] Musicians play their instruments of the orchestra I didn’t think that was.
It’s a system error fix it fix it or not a picture of a Daytona to 60 seconds didn’t have sex.
Web we weave universe was created the 3rd of that time as well someday you’ll have to tell us how you did it to see how this remind you of a friendly face it’s warm and it’s,
play fallen and biting and it needs to say hello,
if you keep alienating people for no reason to be no one left for to say hello to your Apple stock was 441 million dollars but your daughter and welfare must be able to see the she looks like you,
Rodger instaboard make make people miserable if that we’re true.
Was talking to the fire Marshall in the building manager at are going to come in and tell everyone to leave before it causes a Stampy to the on my text it’s Philippine well worth it for them to survive.

Stu Willis:
[1:43:49] Again it feels like that the journey of that film is that he realised by the end of the day by the third act it’s more him become his own internal obstacle like I mean he’s definitely.

Chas Fisher:
[1:44:00] Well he’s there it’s always like an arc of awesome because he’s not the obstacle he’s Disick.

Stu Willis:
[1:44:04] It is feedback of Awesome.

Chas Fisher:
[1:44:06] He’s he’s been you know was yeah exactly by not ever changing.

Stu Willis:
[1:44:15] So he could have to change relationship to his daughter and that’s kind of how it’s dramatized no you’re wrong it’s actually herself normal because I mean it is in that he’s do his.
Planning reality distortion field is mostly manifest his relationship with his daughter Lisa and his inability to accepted she his daughter and that happens at the end of the.
And I’m eating in some ways that some of the Shane structure this clear the forces then take his MSD drops it clearly other people they’re related to make a Steve Wozniak the least brand story his old where it is the pizza guy.
John Sculley beer all people that are challenging him but they’re all changing him on the basis of who we use.

Chas Fisher:
[1:45:02] Yeah the challenging him but his his job is to resist them.

Stu Willis:
[1:45:07] That’s finished dinner here is it them but their antagonists could have grown out of who were you.
They are quite like their his monsters.
All his Ghosts really like this is two jobs in a way is kind of like a Christmas carol,
you know Ghosts of History past I may I actually wonder if there isn’t an hour to see that that history past is like a Steve Wozniak history present is probably no I accidentally so early because you passed,
Steve Wozniak is repair there is it is very similar in that structure that is his goes to his past is anything him and no the forces of antagonism Grove from him.
And he is he’s like he’s just arrogant.
But the thing is he was like.

Chas Fisher:
[1:45:58] Where is a lack of relation to other people I think.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:02] Or I should know I think is probably probably find the quote ultimately it’s the idea that you can be a genius and around to be an arsehole.

[1:46:08] People used to ask me what the difference was between me and Steve Jobs I would say Steve was the big picture guy and I like the solid workbench when people ask me what the difference is now I say.

[1:46:22] Your product you’re better than you are a brother that’s the idea brother
the knowing that that’s the difference.

It’s not binary you can be decent and gifted at the same time.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:37] That’s the the Steve job job thing is he correlated being.
If I’m smart arse hole the people they will perform their for being an arsehole is good and that can I be bad listen to people talk from Steve Jobs as opposed to all what he had to say about design.

Chas Fisher:
[1:46:53] But is that is that what the movie Steve Jobs were saying.

Stu Willis:
[1:46:59] I’ll have to watch again I think that is possibly in a sack to get the feeling that he’s a lot nicer to the people around him with what was arrogant.

[1:47:09] You know what this is good for what computer ugly so you know what it said for I’m sorry I said that about that I make it so what I really think I might back at the office you know what it’s good for.
Local integrated system architecture I was 5 we could use light.

[1:47:28] Course was named after you well and grated system architecture don’t you mean anything
I just see it wasn’t of those years.

[1:47:40] Now I can go now
I do say you are my father.

[1:47:50] I’m poorly made.