Dz-49: Antagonists! (Part 1) – Vs Humans

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Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcast


Stu Willis:
[0:00] Question is am I the protagonist in your eye you the antagonist or.

Chas Fisher:
[0:03] I think everyone knows that I’m the protagonist in your the antagonist I suffer you.

Stu Willis:
[0:09] Yeah I make you a better person and a better writer and a better podcast so you know basically.
I’m on my talking Darth Vader you wouldn’t have Star Wars without me.

[0:30] Hi I’m Stu Willis.

Chas Fisher:
[0:31] And I’m just Fisher.

Stu Willis:
[0:32] And welcome to drive here oh a podcast where to mail sis riders men’s playing what makes great screen scraping work.

Chas Fisher:
[0:39] Or attempted and today we are talking about antagonistic forces this whole exploration at was prompted by a questionnaire from a listener.

Intro: Antagonists

[0:52] Hey guys thanks for the podcast and thanks for taking my question.

[0:56] I’m currently running a script without a primary antagonists has characters that changed but less in the sense of the traditional Hero’s journey and more from the conflict between each other’s world view and how they react differently to the obstacles they face.
I was wondering if you consider taking a closer look at films where the world of the story acts as antagonistic Forza supposed to a traditional villain.
I’m looking for examples outside of seat disaster films without a singular or even human antagonist.
Halloween films keep the story from peeling like a series of Bindi at strong together but I’ll put it another way a series of and vans instead of but their paws.
Some examples that just come to mind gravity the road and even Contagion which is arguably a disaster film.
Children of Men is probably the best comparison in terms of structure to my own but I wonder if that script has the advantage of having such high Stakes race.

[1:47] Is it really Clive Owens character that we want to succeed or just to see his goal account.

[1:52] Is the protagonist having a clearly defined gold enough to carry a film with a changing cost of antagonists that serve as temporary.
And can you think of other films a really pulled this off and of course what makes it work thanks guys.

Stu Willis:
[2:07] I’m not just a listener because of patron of the podcast so this is you know if you want us to do a whole podcast about your topic become a patron is it too much like bribery.

Chas Fisher:
[2:16] Part x your question.

Stu Willis:
[2:20] Five part episode what do you mean jazz mansplained.

Chas Fisher:
[2:24] So are we in this episode we were.

Stu Willis:
[2:30] Will actually be with his question at the very end of this series because he tried to answer his question we realised we kind of needed to do some research.

Chas Fisher:
[2:41] Turning.
So anyway in talking about answering his question and consulting at length on Reddit which actually had a very good pre existing archive materials on antagonist we broadly categorised.
Antagonist as a situations where the antagonist are human or you know sentient beings.
Then when the antagonist is the same.
Person as the protagonists so we call that herself and a VS nature vs the Supernatural.

Stu Willis:
[3:20] Kind of like a subgenre of nature but will deal with that when we talk about that.

Chas Fisher:
[3:26] Vs society and then we kind of want to just look at some films that do not follow this classic hero villain protagonist antagonist dynamic.
And see whether the learning still applies DC where the drama is still created from these tools sorry because we had.
Such a vast amount of material together.
And because we had such a neat little categories in which to divide up the work we thought we would release this beach and agonistic force as it’s own episode so.

Stu Willis:
[4:03] I’ll really a part 10.

Chas Fisher:
[4:11] It’s also for an insight into our process the idea of doing one recording session and getting 3 releases.
You know it’s roughly of the same length is quite a peeling and we’re not going to do this I think every time there are some topics which won’t.
Divide up as neatly as this one does and it is is also an experiment so please tell us if you like it or not so anyway in this part part 1.
Humans human antagonistic.

Stu Willis:
[4:42] Can I meant man interrupt for a moment I want to talk about antagonistic forces.
Because sometimes people use the word antagonist in to change your body with a villain.
Right in the same way that they use here I’m protagonist in to change a wee bit because we’re all about cutting getting in under the hood Anything Live It technical we wanted to separate that.
Because sometimes the feeling is an antagonist read the antagonistic 4th but not the only one and it will explore.
Be an antagonist in terms of ebbing person fighting the character can move around depending on the sequence or the scene or towards the overall story that’s important to say it up front.
Aunt Allison forces do not necessarily have to be personified in a character which is why we doing vs nature at the end they can be a,
force of opposition and this is a fuck you trust getting to our pieces a force of opposition.
That is within the world within the story that is not a character you know like.
Intact Mystic Force will be like you’re running away from the monster that trying to kill you and you find a car and you try to open the car the car is locked there is a it is an moment of opposition there in antagonistic forced there,
that can be related hopefully to the rules of the world in the way the world build up where those sources of antagonism can come from.

Chas Fisher:
[6:05] And I think one of the reasons why we leaving systems and society late is because open those films have.
Humans or sentient antagonist but also they have a wide range of antagonist like almost every single part of that world beard nature beer human be at the self.
They’re all reinforcing each other so while we.

Stu Willis:
[6:27] Thomas like there’s a system event and in those stories.

Chas Fisher:
[6:31] But I think that my point being that in all the times that we will look at.
Whip whip whip they’ve really picked films that go very far towards the extreme of one category of antagonist but in all of those films.
They can have multiple different antagonistic forces do we not trying to say that there’s only one which one to explore different categories and see how they might enjoy differently with a view that probably the best film use all of these.

Stu Willis:
[7:00] And this comes to our each of our individual Desai.

Chas Fisher:
[7:04] Sisu.

Stu Willis:
[7:06] Haha yeah so I’m going to say cause I’m going to jump off you and then you will explain your pieces season on incompatible it’s a different waves of approaching it we just that for me the antagonist.
Audio testing for specifically related to the.
Broadly speaking dramatic question of the story as in the whole story be dramatic question of the sequence than dramatic question of the sink and these.
Antagonist it forces a waffle need to be related to character or pipe and what you’ll find as we what I found what you mean films is the and testament forces each.
Sequence ausin will change of colour what makes this story very to use car like a game Toma it’s like get through a level and has the box at the end and you pass through the boss and get to the next level and gets harder so.
Jimmy was doing something thinking about animos ways and how they may relate to kind of genre.
And the questions are asking in your saying to as as a writer as a way of kind of looking at your screenplay is seen these Kind of Feeling.
Lumpy or flat maybe your aunt as net force is not as well represented maybe someone else maybe there’s a time when your protagonist become p antagonist with in that scene which will talk about later on you had a fight the different thinking.
Up front about after doing all the homework about antagonism.

Chas Fisher:
[8:26] Yeah I think so I was trying to look up for some some definitions on my knob antagonist and nearly all of them refer to.
A source of obstacle that creates conflict and I think that’s accurate but those are nearly always.
Plot antagonist and I think we’re going to find that is a whole lot of antagonist that are not actually.
Obstacles per se but rather want to.
Inflict change there a force of change on the protagonist and so.
You know for example 30 I’m going to get in the Star Wars reference early Obi-Wan.
In A New Hope is an antagonist to glucose a source of change without Obi-Wan in Luke’s life Luke would not have changed such as he does.

Stu Willis:
[9:21] I’m outcomes Yoda in episode 2 episode 2 episode 5 but I just failed Star Wars.
Todd River.

Chas Fisher:
[9:33] Forever so yes exactly soap and interestingly went if you make this Distinction between a pratap and antagonist that is a force for change versus an antagonist that is an obstacle and you can almost think of them.
One is targeting what the protagonist once like a plot antagonist is something getting in between what the protagonist once and another is pushing the protagonist towards what they need.
And you know so and they almost seen the latter you could almost see it as a character or an internal antagonist where is as I’ve said the the obstacles I’m all the the plot and Haggard.

Stu Willis:
[10:12] Interesting I’m talking about our distances pizza where I says and we’ll talk about what we realised is that these would kind of two ways expecting the same idea that the plot questions,
let me and take me to quick lock questions tend to be external forces to create obstacles where is the,
hot question at where is the journey question City character questions.
And if you are confused why I’m talking about don’t listen to our epic 3 hours on sequin structure which is worth it up the character questions tend to be driven by.
Antagonistic forces that are about the character trying to change.
So that that is kind of like a kind of different ways of looking at the same the role of the antagonist in terms of the story.

Chas Fisher:
[11:01] Yes and as you say in terms of the sequence so just as you will have plot and pluck character and character sequences the antagonist in though sequences will change accordingly.

Stu Willis:
[11:14] And that will polycrete variation which makes you no interest too kind of yous like a broader aesthetic term equates interests or difference I know this is sounding academic more.
Up front but bear with us this is kind of the conclusions we came to after doing the homework am I kinda I guess as we discussed the homework and leave through it that,
we all hopefully illustrate our conclusions what was so hopefully challenge now conclusions hopefully the recording itself is an antagonistic for that forces us to change.

Chas Fisher:
[11:46] So I will finally get to say the movies that we are discussing in this part one of a series on antagonist as always no doubt there will be many more that we just throw in on the side of these,
but the main ones were talking about now I Die Hard misery and three billboards outside of ebbing Missouri.

Stu Willis:
[12:08] So we should probably kick off an episode on human antagonists with diet.

[12:15] It’s Christmas Eve in LA California.
Is it going to see his way instead he’s going to have to see her.

Die Hard

[12:39] Wouldn’t it SkyscraperCity 12 terrorist have to claremore there about 11.

[12:47] Because I am interested in the 640 million dollars in North Pole as they are regret telling you just got.
Winter at the hard way now the last thing McLean one thing is to be a hero I know but he doesn’t have a choice.

Chas Fisher:
[13:11] We been threatening to find out a way to get into Die Hard it from many episodes you do always comes up as the number one example of almost any pieces or area that we want to explore but I’m.
I think I’m genuinely excited to look at this one because.
I suspect one of the best things about Die Hard one of the things that sets it so far that is still held in such high regard in the action movie genre.
Is because of it’s antagonist and it’s antagonistic forces.

Stu Willis:
[13:42] Which there are many sorry,
but we put it on FIFA human category for a reason which is I think why people think about Die Hard they think of the central relate the original with course.

Chas Fisher:
[13:53] Hans Gruber.

Stu Willis:
[13:55] Hans fucking grew back in Melbourne and he passed away Hervey Bay.

Chas Fisher:
[14:03] Well I would hope plug before his.

Stu Willis:
[14:05] And I like your pants around me so like 7 so we’ve both had a little moment.

[14:17] Made me very happy so you think of an antagonistic classic which is part of the reason we wanted to do this first because that is what people think of the intact Mystic Force.
Is that kind of villain.
And yes he is pursuing it you know all those kind classical and things Hans Gruber is pursuing a goal in in pursuing that goal he kind of him posing as himself on the protagonist in a way and.
Ship happens more or less and Gruber is a good villain and we babies observation before and we’re not the only ones who Gruber is like the.
Antithesis of McLean Mclean is a blue-collar cop.
You know brew bar is kind of like a well educated European.

[15:00] Nice suit
John Phillips London
I have two of myself.

Chas Fisher:
[15:08] One of the reasons I think we’ve chosen Die Hard and Hans Gruber is yes he’s a antithesis to 2 McLean and you know there’s a classic line in Raiders of the Lost Ark where belarc says.

[15:22] You and I are very much alike archaeology is our religion that we have Fallen From The Cure.

[15:32] How much is a much different as much as you can handle shadow reflection of you judge to make you like me to push you out of life.

Chas Fisher:
[15:45] Your eyes become creep almost it cliche that particularly in I think genre and action and comic book movies like the Marvel movies do this really well that their billing is the.
Shadow or antithesis of the the protagonist but.
I think all the things that you’re describing about McLean they wouldn’t have been as obvious.
In a villain other than Hans Gruber I think the fact that he is well educated that they are in a bill that you know it talk about sources of antagonism certainly Holly.
The fact that she’s aspiring to work in that building with those people because it’s not just Hans Gruber it’s that party of people it’s what’s the name of that the smiling arsehole.
The guy who tries to negotiate and ends up getting shot.

Stu Willis:
[16:35] Perry Ellis.

[16:37] Alice what have you told them I told them we were all friends and you were my guest at the party.

Chas Fisher:
[16:43] Alice is as much a contrast in her every every other character in this world other than the copies outside.
Is in that same way that contrast to John McLean and it’s because of that that they constantly underestimate him or don’t understand his motivations like the reason why John mcclane is the perfect antagonist to Hans Gruber is hungry but just can’t understand.
His motivations like why he doesn’t just sit back and do nothing.

[17:13] You have me at a loss you know my name is where you.

[17:29] Kind of hush little Roy Rogers actually really like them sequin shirt I think you have a chance against us at Mystic cowboy.

Stu Willis:
[17:42] Who has got his own antagonistic forces that he’s facing right.
Gruber is dealing with all the hostage situations be dealing with Lake Alice and the Bear the original CEO he try to break into sacred seven locks these are actually forces of antagonism,
gets group at things that their obstacles they’re not none of them really challenge Gruber on a personal level.
They’re prob do that he needs to go through he’s got forces of antagonism which is I think a part of the complexity the building itself is is under construction which creates all kinds of physical obstacle.

Chas Fisher:
[18:20] Classically the broken glass on the floor after he’s taking his shoes off.

Stu Willis:
[18:23] But also having to get up and down the building but then we’ve got the antagonist outside of.
The tower which is when McLean stuff involving the lapd he’s got to come into power then you get the power box is turning up and then wanting to,
finding the SWAT team Mac at blown up and then and then the FBI guys turn up these are people that they’re McLean have to deal with butter,
not the dog school for the kind that I mean on a challenging him on a character level,
possibly not but they are decorating interference with his ability to get what he wants but just to stop her because he’s trying to protect his wife and as you say,
even antagonist by moving to LA by by using her maiden name etc cetera.
Closest thing comes to change it saying tell my you know tell my wife I’m sorry I was an asshole with him coming to realise that he should have mood with her to Los Angeles.

Chas Fisher:
[19:17] I mean we’re talking about a film that is not big on internal change it is a very plot driven film but in that plot dreamfilm live deliberately chosen.
Characters who are.
Create the most this sound so obvious and name but I think it needs to be important for what it does the create the most conflict for each other I mean that classic scene where Hans is checking the explosives and,
comes into contact with McLean and he pretends to be an American.

[20:29] He deliberately pretends to be stupid like he doesn’t pretend to be an Alice like American like an arrogant.
Well educated American he takes himself down to McLeans level and that’s how he’s not in that moment is not threatening to Maclean.

Stu Willis:
[20:46] To the point man McLean give them a gun.
But I’m loaded but I don’t wanna get into that great bit of dramatic irony I think what we really trying to say is that die hard is it.
It’s got like 40 layers of antagonistic forces dinner manifested in terms of the physical environment that he’s in.
That are manifested in his relationship with the henchmen and ultimately the villain but coming given at this episode is about the vs humans.
Right coming back this idea the crew brexit I have villains and pop questions which is my thesis right.
Something like be a menace what armoured car goes in that’s the population of Lake will the other card breach will they will the lapd stop this guys and involved in that scene.
Lol is it like until then when you try to get off something using the second explosive but ultimately.
Turn the lapd into kind of an antagonistic forces for the.
What group is man I may have to use the rocket launcher in there McLean involve himself but that’s a moment when it becomes between 2/4 to groups of separate to Maclean and,
did take the tension between them the FBI and the lapd with the rules until you know Johnson and Johnson not related you know,
all those kinds of level they create a lot of antagonism between all the destruction of the police Pat at Southern pal and his commanders so I can power on the FBI the FBI and now he’s all these.

[22:19] Complex even even when Gruber doesn’t want.
His brother doesn’t want him to kill playing all those things like there’s actually kind of conflict within group is Henchman and that.
Craigs high interest but it also make is what makes the film exciting that looking to explore and take me some just between the relationships between everyone.

Chas Fisher:
[22:44] I like this point that you were getting to that the antagonist themselves in particular Hans Gruber has many sources of antagonism that are not actually the protagonist.
And this is possibly what makes Hans Gruber,
as such an amazing protagonist ending turned I had such an amazing example of the genre is because we feel for his journey more because every single piece of antagonism that McLean has we also see Hans experiencing,
almost as if it’s like a like a two handed rom-com.
But showing in terms of conflict with the protagonist every single one of those forces of antagonism all mostly human other than the building.
Are not a under-estimating John McLean or not listening to him or not paying attention to him so his plan is to sit and wait it out.
Until they don’t listen to him.
And we are when the FBI is intervening they’re not listening to him they’re not in a talking in her acknowledging that the the build the roofers.
Getting ready to blow up and what have you so it is this is what I mean I think what it’s a classic example of is the forces of antagonism.
I watch shape the protagonist they from a perspective of the audience like the audience might not focus on him as a blue-collar hairy if he wasn’t in this,
White Collar world with his white, antagonist with everyone constantly looking down on him and not listening to him because he is just a cop from you.

Stu Willis:
[24:18] But the question is a dramatic question which is when will the lapd I’m such a pal realise that he is a.
Officer police officer and that becomes a question and that creates part of the tension he needing to be taken seriously let’s now we can transfer it into two misery because I think that is.


[24:39] We will be gone for something that is super lame action movie lots of conflict or something that is very contained it’s.

[24:50] This kind of America your phone in me if I had everything here is the measuring Arbor a good man could never created such a wondrous living creature is misery chat.
Misery Chastain cannot be dead.

[25:23] Do you think about anybody coming for you because I never called them nobody knows you’re here and you better hope nothing happens to me.

Chas Fisher:
[25:33] Well for those of you don’t know misery is a horror film directed by Rob reiner in his incredible run of like 6 movies which are all time great movies and based on a Stephen King.
Book what is it in Abella anyway at about a writer who ends up trapped in the house of his.
Psychotic fan the reason why I chose this form is I thought all you know misery is such an amazing wonderful experience this is going to root and it’s just two people trapped in a room for almost the whole film this is really going to show.

Stu Willis:
[26:09] Character.

Chas Fisher:
[26:09] Yes I’m great lessons about how antagonist bring it out each other and I was stunned upon watching it to see that yes they are too human characters stuck in the room but they are nearly entirely.
Plot antagonist in that they are obstacles to what each other wants but there’s nothing about their needs like Annie Wilkes.
I need is to not be a psychopath and nothing in the film pushes her to not be a psychopath.

Stu Willis:
[26:41] I just made fun of Die Hard not having much character development at least you know that claims need it for his wife to take him back but he need some kind of approval,
recognition and I’ll feel more people not approving you man accused of awesome he needs the world to realise he’s awesome but it’s not even that in misery with.
There Paul Sheldon like Sheldon doesn’t.
Anyway you think he’s pretty awesome he doesn’t really know what his his want to realise that he shouldn’t have killed off misery which ah yeah if you haven’t seen it kills off a character in a book I’ve reached nanny Annie reads and that’s what sets her off.

[27:23] Dirty Bird how could you
she can’t be dead
misery Chastain cannot be dead
any in 1871 women on.

[27:38] Spirit of them.

[27:40] I said no.

[27:53] She died she just left the way.

Chas Fisher:
[28:15] I don’t want to I’m not criticizing the full measure is one of my favourite All Time movies I was just stunned.
Upon watching it through this lens to realise that they’re not really internal.
Character antagonist on each other and what keeps it so taught is just a series of.
Plot questions and obstacles that they pose for each other you know as Paul you know the real turning point is Annie admitting to Paul essentially that she’s keeping him Prisoner.

[28:44] Don’t even think about anybody coming for you at the doctors at Regent Theatre family because I never call them.

[28:55] Nobody Knows You’re Here
and you better hope nothing happens to me
because if I die
you die.

Chas Fisher:
[29:05] And that goes escalating throughout the movie where he begins to fear for his life and she’s keeping him prisoner it to make him write this book and he becomes acutely aware that when he finishes the book.
You still not going to get out of here.

[29:20] Down there another fear of losing someone like you who someone like me.

Chas Fisher:
[30:06] I mean kinda forgotten to mention that the reason she’s kept in trapped is.
Because there was a nature antagonist in the form of a blizzard he crashed his car she rescued him from the car and his legs are destroyed and it wasn’t her fault.
She is looking after a man is trapped by his legs until the point that she realises that he is actually creeping around the house while she’s gone.
And and she.

Stu Willis:
[30:35] Frankies ankles with a sledgehammer.

Chas Fisher:
[30:36] Yeah she hobbles him it’s amazing into it you know nothing you’ve seen Paul Sheldon.
Trapped in this house with this woman plotting to escape from most an hour and a half and we don’t really know a thing about him.

Stu Willis:
[30:52] I made this point and.
Technicality for the sake of technicality but isn’t eating way to structure a film which is I don’t know if Paul is the protagonist of this.

Chas Fisher:
[31:03] Yes I do.

Stu Willis:
[31:05] Anyway he’s and antagonist to that Annie is the main character you happen to have her favourite novelist what you got this is me retelling a story.
You know any is the biggest fan she’s gone through a messy divorce he turns up she’s got this opportunity to a kayak it to him weeds away.
You know man you read the very latest version of his book and then realises that this character the meant so much to her just died and she said demands and he writes a book while she’s keeping him trap and and you get spoilt I don’t understand why she keeps him.
Trapped the detective local sheriff Buster is on her.
Heel feels like we want him to rescue Paul but when the filming to cut him coming home it’s making you afraid for any getting caught up all the waiting pick up to him turning up and heading home if I change when I get caught anything to get caught.

[32:00] As well xxx this works.

Stu Willis:
[32:16] Me mate may want to see that but the way the film structure is it is it’s actually like she is.
You know where can I more concerned for her then we are for Paul and she’s at the closest thing it still has to it.
How to question is will and I realise that she’s a psycho and let Paul died and the answer to that use no she doesn’t have any moment of self realisation 3 minutes,
tragedy we’re at the end she has that before too late has the ignore assists which she realises that,
the error at the way she doesn’t even make that this shit she she wants to commit suicide with him right now but it’s interesting because I think structurally.
I’m on the over all that.
In the middle part of the film from my any turns up to the end and it’s kind of her that she’s she’s more the protagonist to him in terms of the overall stock should be seen not one of the scenes about.
Moccasins but how is Paul going to escape how is Paul Canada views how is Paul going to do that.
All those little things are structured about those pot questions to do with him needing to escape lol the code to stuff is about Annie It’s an Eevee learn about.
Paul Green discovering a scrapbook of her newspaper clippings about how she used to try to get to several infants excetra excetra right.

Chas Fisher:
[33:28] I mean what do we know about Paul other than he’s an author who has a daughter.

Stu Willis:
[33:33] I want to be taken seriously because and am this is why I’m in a come back to the outside structure is a film which is something I’ll talk about with shame we just did he wants to be taken seriously as a novelist and that’s why he has chosen to kill off.
The character of misery we see you soon flashback and then write his series normal you write this serious not willing Annie makes him burn it.
Ultimately what Paul gets out of the experience is the he writes a new book.
Set me an Bratayley gets his rave critical reviews so he’s undergoing they changed it maybe by being confronted through the horror of what Annie has done to them his become a better novel if this is the closest thing that Paul has to a journey of chain.

Chas Fisher:
[34:13] I mean yes but we also don’t know whether he’s become a better novelist because we don’t know if the book that she made him burn wasn’t the greatest thing that he’d ever it.

Stu Willis:
[34:23] And he sees are everywhere there’s that we all horror jumpscare which is really a jumpscare cause we know she’s dead.
So it’s interesting because it is so purely plot driven and the antagonistic forces you’re everything like one fact that he’s.
Holden have to get around in a wheelchair in a locked out quotes all these opportunities for antagonism write the fact that.
You know she doesn’t drink in the book he drinks his own your own you know she’s giving him those tablets which have to square away all these opportunities every single moment forces of and tag mission to him getting out of it.

Chas Fisher:
[35:01] It’s all about what these characters one and nothing about there’s nothing pushing them to what they need and busted you know you mentioned that he’s the sheriff who’s investigation is happening.
And it’s really I think Buster is there for a structural and pacing reasons because.
Every time you see Buster you like come on busted figure it out go and find Paul he’s still alive you know,
it is for the audience to give them information because Annie has no idea eat you say is an antagonist to an e in the.
Ultimately he’s the obstacle to the success of her plan which she doesn’t realise that he’s an obstacle until he shows up at the door.

Stu Willis:
[35:45] And she shoots him.

[35:47] Consolidated.

Chas Fisher:
[35:51] From heard from her perspect.

Stu Willis:
[35:53] Lucky turns up she choose them out of the house when he comes back when he’s ball and then she shoots him and it’s been here and that’s all I’m trying to say about he becomes at that moment but the sheriff after becomes the antagonist.
GP obstacle for her keeping Paul less so very complicated just go home in terms of how it creates opposition in and we could do we could talk for 40 minutes if we looked at it very closely about all the way.
Each of those things in a sequence is that just finishing the novel,
becomes I’m trying to think of it examples cause he comes up with his plans for Escape so when she gets um to write the novel that kind of becomes a whole sequence of a see the passing of time then he has his whole.

Chas Fisher:
[36:32] But he’s just to make it clear while she’s forcing him to write the novel he’s using the typewriter to work out to get his Armstrong again.

Stu Willis:
[36:41] And then it becomes whether or not you know how is he going to succeed in that plan that becomes a sequence within it itself into those that plan succeed or not.

Chas Fisher:
[36:51] There’s a lot of plans that go I mean wanted one of the best on please just give one example before we move on one of the best plans is where you start squirrel in a way his pain killers to drug her so that he can escape and he actually a cheese that he says.

[37:05] Toast toast to measure.

Chas Fisher:
[37:12] And his pain is to drug her and escape he gets the drugs into her glass.

[37:17] Perth delivery and any works Friday back to life.

Chas Fisher:
[37:27] And you know going back to a coincidence is episode.

[37:30] I get goosebumps every time we make it pop.

Chas Fisher:
[37:36] She knocks over the glass when she comes back.

[37:39] Oh so sorry Paul I ruined your beautiful toast.

Chas Fisher:
[37:44] And it’s such a painful moment for the audience and for The Protector fit him but I think you’re right he’s one thing that we’ve got in common for these.
23 plot-driven films that have human antagonists is that in both films we can describe the film very easily.
From the villains perspective what are there once what are there needs what are the obstacles so I’ve seen this.
Bit of advice Trot it out there as a you know almost there but right.
5 tips to make your screenplay better but I think this one is a genuine one is take a step back look at your story from the perspective of if you have a single villain or any character.
Look at it from through the lens of a character other than your main character and I use that word.
In particular because I think you know in both die hard and misery arguably Paul Sheldon and John mcclane are the main character’s but they might not be the protagonists.
They don’t drive the plot in either movie.

Stu Willis:
[38:50] Well McLean makes the decisions turn up.
And stay that to me is the closest thing that makes him cognitive Die Hard is that this limousine waiting for him is like do you want to bail out I’ll be here waiting for you when he chooses not to bail out,
if he bailed out at that point the film wouldn’t have happened that the routed to succeed in his plan there was no fly in the ointment.
That’s what he was to the villain any misery it’s different.
I guess he is the fly in the ointment to Paul celan but he would have died in the snow so if she wasn’t there to rescue him.
Me to make some more interesting in and also the forces of antagonism the primary force of that antagonism comes from Perth he’s the one who locked the door who breaks juices to break his leg,
that’s the goal finishing the novel all those things there’s environmental,
antagonists insensitive Snowden but she’s also lying to him about the phones at work working all those etc etc.

Chas Fisher:
[39:50] The roads being closed.

Stu Willis:
[39:52] Macgruber having her having henchmen.
Right she’s kind of got henchmen but then henchmen up people there objects the lock doors the phones don’t work it’s a kind of it everybody confronts a and her wanting drug in.
Aren’t you does she in Jackson.
And I mean I know we want to get into three billboards bitter makes me think of dark life because everyone can’t hold up the Joker and and the Batman relationship in The Dark Knight as such as a strong villain and protagonist but in.

The Dark Knight

[40:25] You know in that case did the joker is creating all the training as many obstacles as possible for.
Batman and you actually creates change because when he make Batman choose between saving Harvey Dent.
And I’m not gonna say Maggie Gyllenhaal but that’s really unfair.

Chas Fisher:
[40:44] Rachel Rachel.

Stu Willis:
[40:46] When he makes me make a choice and then he fucked him up by actually lying about who they are because Batman decided to take the Joker at face value.
That kind of he is driving that change and he’s the primary source of that and daggers and from the very beginning of the cell.

Chas Fisher:
[41:05] Yep but the joker is very deliberately yes he’s putting obstacles in Batman’s way but he’s his what he wants to do is to enact change on Batman like he actually wants to be a character antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[41:18] He is a character in taken.

Chas Fisher:
[41:19] His actual stated objective like his conscious of it.
Write his actual stated objective is to get Batman to see the world the way the Joker Cesar.

[41:34] Synchromesh without rules.

Stu Willis:
[41:50] And that’s what makes him I guess that’s so stand out in a very clear examples I guess we just didn’t do it because so many people talk about it as a primary example.
That’s what makes him such a strong antagonistic force in that sell please got other ways of manifesting itself as a force because it actually feels like it’s almost olden by the Joker in a way that misery it’s not quite.
Driven Aldrin by Annie.

Chas Fisher:
[42:14] Yeah I mean that there are sequences you can see any sequence where Annie is present because Paul is a point of view character we very rarely see any.
When Paul is not present there’s a couple of shots of her in the town.

Stu Willis:
[42:27] Pet shops near.

Chas Fisher:
[42:28] When that went that’s busters point of view right not hers.
So you never in Annie’s point of view you never alone with Annie seeing how she experiences the world so she’s always in charge of anything where she’s present,
in terms of she’s in control of it they’re not to say whether she’s the protagonist or antagonist but as soon as she’s absent we get to see Paul’s.
Plans Machinations attempts.

Stu Willis:
[42:55] Yeah but we don’t get as much we will do with All Is Lost in our vs nature section but.
I think it’s interesting cuz I get more character out of the hour man dial of this character in All Is Lost and I do at a Paul Sheldon.
And there is a structural reason for that which is I think it would be an Paul Paul Closest Thing To A stated goal or I want a,
1 at the beginning of the film not even necessarily need is that you want to be taken seriously as a real right I’m back the closest thing that we’ve got and then by the end of the film he has.
What is the about the Dark Knight just too kind of cat back noodle,
transmission off what is interesting about Die Hard in comparison to both misery and The Dark Knight is the Die Hard the villains and cells have a lot of antagonistic forces someone which they overcome and some which they are.
Maclean is definitely the fly in the ointment the kind of set them back and then they find an they actually you’re forced to find you a Solutions like the seat you know I change your plans with blowing up,
pulling their plans allowed to kind of change where is,
the one thing with that night as the Joker is plan to be Court of Justice court at the right time in the guy you know the guy I’ve got the bomb in the stomach like that kind of pointed it on top of the queen today.
That kind of sticks out.
You know it’s because he’s not allowed to be forwarded with misery I think Annie he can be a force of opposition to her like an turns is writing a book on traffic of a good example.
I think we’ve all tried to stand up to her she kind of snacks in back down pretty quickly.

Chas Fisher:
[44:21] Yeah but when I mean the thing that he at the end.

Stu Willis:
[44:24] I burnt the book yet.

Chas Fisher:
[44:25] P a burns a book he burns the book that she’s made him right.

Stu Willis:
[44:28] If you did say 20 and then we hear her have this want which is this is interesting tell the Sheriff.

[44:36] Guy told me since I was number one fan that I should make up new stories as if I was Paul Sheldon.
I went to town and I buy the typewriter and paper to type on the same kind Paul Sheldon used and I turn the guest bedroom into a writing studio would you like to see it.

Stu Willis:
[44:54] And that’s only gives us more of an insight into her character that she wants to cut a b ball,
and then she’s going to keep him in there and keep him writing and then he burns that book in front of her as she did for him so he is kind of like her force for change on her in it in the smaller Heath what’s her plan.

Chas Fisher:
[45:11] Yeah I think you can perfectly see that film as her is the protagonist what is interesting is I don’t think it matters what the point to take away is that you can see both films.
Through the lens and that’s in a testament to their strength as you know as examples of their genre.

Stu Willis:
[45:31] Yeah alright and going on to something more complicated because it’s a broadly speaking and someone come should we do three billboards after I come back from the p.

Three Billboards Outside Of Ebbing, Missouri

[45:41] What you can and cannot say on a billboard I assume you can’t say nothing defamatory you can’t say fuck is a cunt that right or.

[45:51] I think I’ll be alright then
Angus and I hate his brother that’s right.

Hey did you put up inside my daughter Angela 7 months ago seems to me the police department is too busy torture and black folks if I’m actual crime directions to Taylor I know.

Chas Fisher:
[46:22] So it’s three billboards outside of ebbing Missouri written directed by Martin McDonagh who did In Bruges which is my and your girlfriend’s one of our favourite films but the reason why I strongly.
Urge you to go to the cinema so that you could watch it so that we could discuss it here is because I genuinely think.
The protagonist of the film changes three times on on broadly act or sequence basis.
And because the protagonist changes.
The antagonists change every time it does it the film almost pulls the rug out from underneath you and you’re forced to kind of reassess these characters because just by being in their point of view you start to empathize with.

Stu Willis:
[47:12] Yes because it is it starts off with the kind of backstory.
Tell me inciting incident but they’re the Frances mcdormand character and Mildred Hayes is.
Grieving after the wrecker murder of her daughter Angela that’s happened I think 10 months earlier I can’t remember what’s the period of time it’s been a while.

Chas Fisher:
[47:33] Yeah but not too far either.

Stu Willis:
[47:36] Don’t quite a cold case but enough giving it the 48 Hours is meant to be like the golden.
Out times at Solver crying like it’s clear that it’s it’s kinda going to becoming a cold case.
And she went three billboards along a abandon Road that says great I dying.
Do no arrests how come she will it be this is going to have it and the films teases this information out but this is a moment this is a protagonist choice is there a voice choice in the First Choice it’s it’s the chain of events in motion or at least we think I’m going to set the,
it can be the primary storyline which is that she’s making a choice to ring the billboards and she’s challenging the authorities did to solve the murder of her daughter.
It is a something a protagonist exact it’s also,
see how you look at an antagonistic act which is what the film exploit so well by going into this perspective of the actor mentioned Willoughby sheriff sheriff Willoughby.

Chas Fisher:
[48:34] Play by Woody Harrelson.

Stu Willis:
[48:35] Yeah I’m at all so then he picks the effects the oscar-winning Sam Rockwell character of off officer Jason Dixon.
Who is a as we all learn a racist and a violent alcoholic and by shooting their perspective this kind of in the same way they will time you met with Die Hard that in a way you can see these antagonistic forces.
Thinking about McLean as an antagonistic force for Gruber Co in restart filming any misery you can restructuring that Sheldon the Paul Sheldon is an antagonistic cost for an e.
Did some more because it actually goes really strongly into these point of views of those characters.

Chas Fisher:
[49:16] And it’s not to say that the film completely forget about Frances mcdormand character when it hands off.
The the perspective to these other characters because they’re all in this small town of ebbing Missouri so they’re still interacting but,
facilities three quite defined sequences you are spending time alone with.
These are the characters so the first third of the film is as you say her putting up these billboards and you’re seeing how this is.
You’re impacting on the chief and on officer Dixon and how they are trying to stop her or put pressure on her and other people are in her life as well such as her ex husband her son.

Stu Willis:
[50:02] Talking about the central dramatic question of the overall story is related to the the murder of Angela in that will be the thread that goes the whole way through.
It’s kind of like a VS human Sarina family but they’re cdq with of Die Hard is will answer ever succeed in his wife will McLean stop him and in misery I guess it will Paul Escape.
Annie in the cases will they solve this crime.

Chas Fisher:
[50:28] And the first changeover is a really powerful moment because she will be has brought in Mildred.
Because she’s attacked her dentist who who was about to do some dental work on her while pressuring her to take down the billboards.

Stu Willis:
[50:46] Not using anaesthetic he was being an antagonist in Melton.

[50:50] Going to take a look at it for us.

[50:58] Back can I get a little nobody in there.

[51:12] Just wanted to say there’s a lot of good friends ability in this case.

Stu Willis:
[51:26] He’s trying to force her to change not a plot obstacle he’s a character change.

[51:31] Why do you drill a hole through Corvette Jeffries from now on Pitt night happen.

[51:40] Amphlett he drilled a hole through some south side.

[51:49] How I can all those rape cases you hear about except this time the ticket wasn’t there really about an illusion though is it Melbourne.
You think I care about who wins losses between the two of you think I care about dentist dentist nobody cares about dentist.

[52:12] What I do care about or what I’m interested in.

[52:18] Is tying you up in court so long that your hours at the gift shop be so shut the shit that you are gonna have a penny to pay for another month bill.

Chas Fisher:
[52:30] We know that he’s sick and we know that he’s got cancer but he in that invest in that interrogation scene he coughs up blood on to Annie’s face and immediately.
He’s kind of obviously terrified for his own mortality but she’s terrified for him as well they’ve been at each other’s Heads vet immediately she like gets up and hugs him and comforts him even though her face is covered with his blood.
And from that sequence on which we gonna spoil the fuck out of this movie is suddenly wherein mainly in chief willabees point of view.
We see himself checking himself out of hospital and planning his last we don’t really know but it it it it keeps reinforcing that he’s planning his last perfect day and.
His eventual suicide and how that plays out with his wife.

Stu Willis:
[53:20] I think that suicide is the midpoint and this relates to antagonism and this is really good way now.
Squid good example to end this infection on because.
Why isn’t what is the initial question which is why I left wing or arrest arrest how come chief will it be what Mildred wants.
Not what she wants he is Willoughby to do something and then he kills himself Miller film so it’s literally the story that we thought you’re fine just,
finally to Philippine solving this crime which on some level when it’s hands over you like art now this is the way to get into Willoughby menu,
he really did other priorities cause he was like this one it’s going to be,
some kind of someone of hearing someone else gonna open this up this is what this kind of crime isn’t.
That’s just unfortunate what happens and it’s not because of his lack of character or his ability his confidence.

Chas Fisher:
[54:20] And his suicide again you know one of the outcomes of a suicide is he pays for the hurt the billboards to be up longer.

[54:28] I gotta admit Mildred the Billboard for a great fucking idea they were like a chest.
And I know they had absolutely nothing to do with my Dad I’m sure that everyone in town will assume the third day just y3 willoughby’s countermove I decided to pay the next months rent on I thought it’d be funny.
You having a tooth in another month after they stuck me in the ground.

[54:55] Joke is on you Mildred haha and I hope they do not kill you.

Chas Fisher:
[55:00] And she gets the joke which isn’t wonderful character moment from her.

Stu Willis:
[55:04] It also does keep the pressure on the move I think what is clear about that from opening up to Willoughby,
she is kind of a force for change will be on Willoughby Willoughby goes back to the scene of the crime and looks at everything again and he may still be frustrated for if he does try to change it’s either character she is trying to revisit this.
Case and he wants the attention kept on the murder but is also it’s his final like you know kick in the nuts to her.

Chas Fisher:
[55:30] And then his suicide prompt officer Dixon to basically brutally assault the owner of the billboards the advertising owner of the bill.

Stu Willis:
[55:42] Stefan Street.

Chas Fisher:
[55:44] Yes defenestrate is the word when you throw someone through a window.

Stu Willis:
[55:47] Yes no prompt Dixon t.

Chas Fisher:
[55:50] Defenestrate.

Stu Willis:
[55:52] How many times can you use that in a conversation.

[55:56] Gab enjoy these moments throw them out of the fucking window and this is Windows by what we will learn is he is I will be his replacement bag cool guy from The Wire.

Chas Fisher:
[56:09] Like me still see mildred’s journey continue to an extent you know she.
She blows up she throws multi cocktails through the police station and things like that but we have very much in Jason’s point of view for almost the entire rest of the film.
As he even though he’s been fired from the police force he tries to find out who kills mildred’s daughter.

Stu Willis:
[56:36] I think this is important not only not just kind of for his Molotov cocktails and police station the billboards I burnt down to talk about force of antagonism me billboards are being,
I don’t and she can’t.
Do them so that motivator to then go up to the police so she did it created a change in her which is over it escalated her level of.
I don’t want violence or her opposition but she.
In retaliation ytf escalation so she retaliate by throwing cocktail Molotov cocktails at the police station I know where the inside,
Dixon who is being Fire by the police force but he got 8 letters been told that there is a letter for him.
Farm Willoughby so he’s inside with his head music on a really nice letter telling him how amazing he is which is probably the one thing I have no idea waiting for this all that shit in Dixon.

Chas Fisher:
[57:29] Let’s not get into.

Stu Willis:
[57:32] The politics on it.

Chas Fisher:
[57:33] Like I have all II have all the issues that all the thing pieces have with the movie but from this particular lens of antagonistic forces I think this movie is a masterpiece.

Stu Willis:
[57:43] Fantastic he wants to be here at this point because will it be by being a force of antagonism and committing suicide and tell him Dickson and Dickson could be better get some makes the choice to be better and part of that is he saved the files.
On the murder of milk his daughter Angela he actually picked them off off the table and then dies out the windows where is previously he can’t be fully when I just read it.
So we’ve actually seen the suicide of Willoughby is a force of antagonism changes combined with the Cock the mortal cocktails is an explosive situation.
And Dixon dies at in hero moment and also Mildred then Whitley becomes a Falls of antagonism a Mildred because she is seeing what.
Her Quest or first for Justice Revenge whatever it is it’s let her to.
And then that creates Dixon spot my images in recovering from Burns there is even a small thing in the hospital now.

Chas Fisher:
[58:42] This is not a small thing.

Stu Willis:
[58:43] Well no but it’s a small thing in that when Dixon is put in the hospital somehow Burns unit is in the same room as deep defenestration unit.

Chas Fisher:
[58:52] Which I believe in a small town.

Stu Willis:
[58:55] Maybe I mean yet we don’t stop your place so well well be the guy that Dixon throughout is in the hospital in the same board room and when Dixons Creek up advantages wellbeing.

[59:09] Hey man you doing ok.

[59:14] You going out for any matter will be OK do you want to go swimming.

[59:25] No stress I’m not going to help you ok.

[59:38] I’m sorry will be
you know me I’m sorry.

[59:49] So so if you weren’t trying to out the window.

Stu Willis:
[59:55] The question is what will be what will will be do here and he end up giving him juice it’s something went over this forgiveness.
I just consider it is he is not you know and the film the theme of the film is stated which is anger to get anger and Welby doesn’t give into his anger.
Whether you want to talk that is forgiveness or him actually kinda turning the other cheek he ends up giving dicks showing Dixons and kindness and that in itself then changes Dixon.
You know he’s kind of being punished for being a racist as we’ve had an address of here but he is basically been accused of using excessive brutality against.
And we see that his mother is I just don’t know when all out racist and the only situations force Dixon to want to change.
And that’s why I thought I wanted to step through that because all these things are forces of antagonism that a convicted in opposition because I think we’re Dixon all Dixon,
wanted to be back on the police force for what he needs is not to be racist violent Pollock right.

Chas Fisher:
[1:01:08] So yeah they’re all there all forces of change on him not necessarily obstacles although him being set on fire is quite an obstacle.

Stu Willis:
[1:01:18] And Mildred herself I think also has someone which is that she wants her daughter to be her daughters crime to be sold but I think I need is to.
I just said let it go cuz it’s wrong way cause she’s grieving and she wants justice but at the same time she doesn’t need to let go of anger.
I guess that’s how I would interpreted she needs to let go of her anger because your anger is what we do to throw lots of cocktails at a please.

Chas Fisher:
[1:01:43] Yeah but nothing you eat so this is another interesting film because I would argue that Mildred.
In terms of the choices that she makes does not change.
You know that you talk about the the escalation there’s a scene where she talks to herself while she’s in bed deciding what should I do now.

[1:02:05] What you gonna do it you gotta crucify kaitaia.

Chas Fisher:
[1:02:32] And that’s when she decides to throw the Molotov cocktail through you know it escalates and it escalates and.
I don’t think after throwing the Molotov cocktail through do.
The police station yes I think there’s a measure of regret that she didn’t want to hurt anyone but the film ends with her and Dixon driving off to.

Stu Willis:
[1:02:53] I believe it to it I think we got a cuddle you ok you just spoil it and then we’ll step through how we got there.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:00] Ok to essentially possibly assault / murder a rapist booze not her daughters rapist or murderer it just a rapist so has she changed.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:12] I actually have no evidence that he was a racist.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:16] I mean date they’re going on Dixons word is like he says I know he’s done he didn’t do to your daughter but I know he’s done something so.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:24] About that that could be he say he they going on his intention.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:28] Oh yeah I know what Dicksons going on being turned up from their character points of view it’s true.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:34] Yep they need they need violent Redemption.

Chas Fisher:
[1:03:38] And so I don’t I don’t think she changes certainly not in the way the Dickson definitely change it.

Stu Willis:
[1:03:45] I think our relationship with her changes this is more of a point of view thing but as the story goes on we learn that she.
I was kind of greasy with Angela and told Angela to walk.
When the night that Angela was raped and them and she actually says too I hope you know.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:04] I hope you get raped.

Stu Willis:
[1:04:05] Small essentials like what I’m gonna get raped and she’s like I hope you do whatever the exact conversation tried for your place so that changes our sympathies was Mildred which is why I think it’s about her quest for why she’s so we learn about why she so driven.

Chas Fisher:
[1:04:19] Anne and I think Weasley also do you her differently because we see her as an antagonist to at First Willoughby and then.
To Dickson in terms of pet throwing the Molotov cocktails and that’s made even more so with the scene in the restaurant and it’s a complete subplot but with her and Peter Dinklage.
Character and her ex-husband you know that she is not painted.
As are in a in a good light by those things deliberately I’m not I’m not saying good or it’ll I’m just saying that the film sets out to deliberately leave us I think feeling.
Worse about her and better about Dixon as much as Martin McDonagh has had to go into.
Even the news saying it’s not a redemption.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:11] Well yeah I know.

[1:05:23] In Shepparton
accountants go
not really.

[1:05:37] I guess we can start on the way.

Stu Willis:
[1:05:45] And ultimately it’s saying you as an audience will decide whether or not these characters in I don’t commit a murder for their own sent their own need for.
Revenge or Redemption Redemption through violence someone you know is that I guess.

Chas Fisher:
[1:06:01] Well I think Redemption is the right word because it’s the feeling that they want you know.

Stu Willis:
[1:06:06] I wonder feeling of redemption true bloody violence.

Chas Fisher:
[1:06:09] But I think the astonishing piece of writing that is in this film is about it’s decision.
To change protagonist and by extension swap these characters around like deep hand off to each other as either protagonist or antagonist over scenes and sequences.

Stu Willis:
[1:06:27] Get with inseam yeah.

Chas Fisher:
[1:06:28] Such that you let go the central dramatic question of the film for long stretches of the film.

Stu Willis:
[1:06:34] And a lot of the entire Museum of character.
Antagonist and it’s about people wanting change the pop question of 4th and solve the crime is not a lot of Detective work happens in the Shell.
Really there isn’t the bed to another procedural to think um I just watch Wind River a couple weeks ago and in potentially to talk about it and that is a procedural in forming the clues kind of procedure.
This is not funny I have basically no clothes for Angela all that it has is a little bit of a trick for the audience which is after the midpoint.
Pisshead stranger turns up.
Says all this stuff to Mildred and makes us suspicious at that matter is turned up and then his car like a trooper the genre so well and good I’m wondering if he is the murderer so when we’re with Dixon going I fucking him because The Trooper the film.
Like the text is actually a bit of an antagonist to us as an audience it’s pretty as you know.
So we want him he go through all this shit let’s in something big enough so he gets the life in space and the DNA only till 10 minutes not him and that’s part of Dixon Dixon was seeking Redemption and didn’t get it he was hoping that by solving this crime.
That he was against solving because it has insulted chief Willoughby that he would be let back in the police force that’s what he wants but I don’t think it’s what he needs.

Chas Fisher:
[1:07:58] What do you want the Epping Police Force me.

Stu Willis:
[1:08:01] I think you just email it I don’t think I can define.
As much I wanted a need for him if anyone is a piece if anyone is the villain a person on a fired and time especially Willoughby because he is the force of Change.
On Dixon and he in a way as a filter change on Mildred but committing suicide.
He is really telling her the only way you’re crime as I’m not the person to blame for the death of your daughter,
that is really what he’s saying you know if this is absolutely a vs humans train it’s great to look in and taking isn’t even the ex husband his girlfriend the way that relates the,
son paises son Robbie Robbie,
the way he challenges Mildred and her quest for revenge and way she put it up he is watching character change his.
Being an optical that she needs to overcome the same way there in them.

[1:08:55] Die Hard Or in misery or no shreveport L2 has to work out how to unlock the door and all that’s a barrel questions Robbie exist to challenge mildreds,
kind narrative about what she’s doing,
and we see him it’s always seems of when Mildred drops Robbie at school and stuff me in front of his car and he is dealing with it.
All about challenging Mildred resolved and she can cheers stop at stop motherfucker.

Chas Fisher:
[1:09:23] It’s challenging her result but it does from the audience perspective I do think you know you look at that scene right and yeah someone’s throwing stuff at her car and she gets out and she assaults three high school students.
And we already know that her son is being teased so she very much puts her own need for a disabled in Redemption ahead of her own sons.
Social psychological wellbeing.

Stu Willis:
[1:09:50] Anger begets anger that’s what the films about I’m actually thinking about.
It’s about I guess forgiveness in the sense that forgiveness will stop the cycle of anger but I don’t I don’t think.
Make a difference I’m not some we have this conversation I am not someone who thinks Darth Vader is forgiven it all by throwing the emperor.
Ok finger Star Wars by throwing the Opera down the freaking tube at the thing you know I like he does Vader.
Kill the room for a little fucking young men’s go Hitler.
Gun to the head of global childlike redact.
But funny way to end the cycles of violence as I think what I can I can see the film about and that I don’t think text message early forgiven but it’s clear that he is wanting to cut it and.
That cycle.
Racism in violence setting it safe and it’s kinda person to Die Hard is most fascinating about three billboards,
is the way in which the characters the antagonistic for everyone even the way that will be is an antagonist TX,
boyfriends and antagonist even the James the Peter Dinklage character the dwarf is kind of an antagonist.
The Mildred and but the way that then turns around in the restaurant scene and He stands up to her any stands up to the ex-husband it’s it’s it’s fantastic.

[1:11:26] And in some way just to finish this off because when I got to go into it in detail which is like romantic comedies like you know we had la land and suggest as an example Magic Woman is traditionally the characters are antagonists to each other that they force change upon each other.

La La Land

Chas Fisher:
[1:11:41] Yep definitely I mean the reason why you know we as we went along in this we wanted to try some what where possible to.
Not just,
stick to a categories but trying to talk about some genre conventions as well for antagonist in as you say the best rom coms are ones where,
the the couple falling in love themselves are each other’s antagonist like they are enacting pressuring change on each other and I think what’s amazing about la la land is that,
they are forcing each other to improve and they improved to the point where they stop being good for each other.
I look I’m not I’m not one of these people who think Lala land is anything particularly amazing I certainly.
Don’t think it deserves the accolades that it got your I’m not a huge fan of it but is it clear clear really great example of the rom-com tradition.
The just embrace that and took it as step where they wear it hadn’t the the genre had not gone before what if they changed so much that they don’t fall in love with each other again.
Whether they actually break up and then you have that wonderful ending in that is a film where the ending makes the entire rest of the film.
So much better than what it was because you just play that magic.
What if we had fallen back in love what if we weren’t each other’s antagonist.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:15] You know what I mean ultimately to give us you know it Sebastian is encourages me and to write the play and she a pretty sure she encourages him to play in the band.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:28] She certainly kind of support SIM.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:30] Doing it yeah I think I think he’s season in Vegas.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:33] Drive said to the audition when she’s given up on her acting.

Stu Willis:
[1:13:37] Fill out there babe Taylor at enable each other I mean my problem with the film is it like oh my god I can’t believe that you know Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling would particularly struggling.

Chas Fisher:
[1:13:49] So Stew what have you learnt from this part 1 of antagonistic forces where we’ve dealt with human antagonist am I human I guess we mean I keep saying sent in characters because I think it’s anything that.
Engages in dialogue almost.

Stu Willis:
[1:14:06] Well if films that we don’t do in Darling give him a we talk about sentiens on the Blade Runner episode and on their and they’re gonna episode Sydney it’s probably good said anything that we describe.
Character too because I think what if we get into supernatural films that’ll be interesting because their Supernatural forces that n and that are,
presented to be sent in and as I was on sentient Ghost Stories I guess vs Sparrow monster we had a really die with the sequence.

Wrap Up & Learnings

[1:14:36] Deconstruction of the same structure of many of the films I guess three billboards is the closest but I think the question.

[1:14:45] Hey baby I want to see that I am right and I think you’re still right.
In terms of bike what exchanges is this idea that.
You can find a flip but there is an exercise to be hard as a rider where you flip the story and you try to explore your protagonist and antagonist fuel villain.
Is really useful and I think what is interesting is how hot heavy misery is if the lack of contact forces for character change this is Elise Die Hard there was a level of desire for.
McQueen to change even if optimal specifically his wife.

Chas Fisher:
[1:15:26] But it was never while it was posed I think as a question at the beginning of the film it never drove any sequence of the film ok back it does drive the entire first sequence of the film up until Hans Gruber shows up.

Stu Willis:
[1:15:41] And in a way there’s a pay off because he doesn’t work out that Holly is related to McLean until the journalist uncovers back and he recognises the photo so there is a plot pale grey gets makes it feel more organic.
There is a consequence of her using her first name using a surname outside of McLeans very kind of.
Macho patriarchal she should use my last name thing.
And how dare she had a career thing about the sequels as they should have paid off that a little bit more the idea that he actually did move to LA and was trying to.
Make it go with her anyway that’s kind of my cookie wedding make your protagonist antagonist for your antagonists and retain it’s the protagonist antagonist.

Chas Fisher:
[1:16:29] Ah I think you know one of the most.
Subversive gate I’m not saying it’s easy to do nor should you do it but we’ve now kind of admired to films that just.
Stop the antagonist sport swap antagonist for whole sequences sicario being the other one.
And I think it’s you know we don’t need to be tied to this paradigm.
Of the protagonist must change and go through these obstacles and go into the magic fucking Cave and come out with the Elixir you know the fact that misery surprise me by being so plot oriented for a field that is 2 people trapped in a fucking room.
Astonishes me so.

Stu Willis:
[1:17:12] Actually do use your swapping in around example I’m going to end I’m going to book in this I think positive that the reason that the,
Hans Gruber and John McLean see maybe meet the dramatic obviously got dramatic irony that thing is actually played out from Uber.
Like a hand looking for the bums and then McLean comes him up and the question becomes almost a group of the protagonist of that saying.
Anne McClain is the antagonist obvious when is Maclean going to work out a Gruber is who are you it’s like with the film Justice that’s been slightly different so a little bit afraid for Gruber.
Like when I actually not sympathetic to him but our concern is with him being discovered because the way they chosen to destruction that seen in the nature and I think,
as a rider looking at those opportunities to kind of breathe fresh air or Clan of you know,
great offensive differentiation so doesn’t come save me a lot of film lighting can become a bit saying because the patterns of protagonism antagonism kind of the same.
And sometimes by flipping the point of view as three billboards did they misery did Craig makes it more interesting and make some more complex.
In the same same way that this Imperial Black Royal I’m drinking with the balance of the hots and me.
Kind of.
Ads complex the right as a comment of complexity and spice to the I think of collection or cook cops and the kind of the big caramel charcoal mass of the black ale.

Chas Fisher:
[1:18:45] He quite done.
So please let us know whether you liked this episode being slightly shorter and the breakup of a.
This thesis into different mini parts,
episodes of Stu corrected me earlier on TuneIn soon for our next episode which is our protagonist vs themselves protagonist herself and thank you so much to all up Adrian’s who,
are slowly but surely encouraging us to do more drugs Caro.

Stu Willis:
[1:19:20] Integrate Sandra Paul Rob Christopher Kirkham and prob hang out of level patrons you guys are really good forces of antagonism for us 2 release episodes better.

[1:19:39] If you feel so compelled to argue with Chaz and myself about anything on this episode or anything in general you can find many ways to contact us at draught Highton and there you’ll also find the show notes for this episode as well as links to,
share the word n and renting with us on Apple podcasts and if you’re feeling even more supportive you can also find links to a patron page.
And thanks for listening.

[1:20:24] I kill those people.